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View Full Version : Feedback for the 5 second land placement in PTS.



Shalille
12-13-2014, 08:52 PM
Today I tested the 5 second house placement delay on the Test server :


Initial clicking on a burning down spot results in the usual "cannot construct if it will overlap", followed by "cannot place this for 4 seconds" when attempting to spam further clicks.

Then if you continue spamming the button, you may receive the confirmation pop up, while still under the effect of "cannot place for 4 seconds" before you can click the confirm"

###

Its good to see some progress on this issue, (has taken 3 months for Trion to get XL games to even do this) but its still very vulnerable to cheaters with this change.

Cheaters will set their macros to wait exactly x seconds once a scarecrow is destroyed, (just the exact time until the land becomes available) then start auto clicking to win the initial placement followed by confirmation.

So cheaters will hit the scarecrow to destroy it, then start their macro as before. And its very difficult to compete for legit players trying to count the time manually until the plot is available.

###

A possible way to fix this would be to adjust the serverside timer of when the scarecrow vanishes, before the plot becomes available to place. Make it a random timer of between 5-15 seconds. But this will still favor those with good ping and reflexes.

###

I think the best fix would be to have the "cannot place" effect also trigger on the player when the confirmation pops up, but with a random duration of 5-10 seconds before you can confirm, so that cheaters who get their confirmation to pop first wont automatically beat the legit players who are trying to compete manually.

WhiteRaven
12-14-2014, 12:19 AM
This is absolutely the best way to ensure that ONLY hackers can win land grabs.

I am fairly successful, even against macros, at sniping demo'ing land with nothing but clicks, and this is going to make it nearly impossible.

The ONLY reason I CAN win is because I'm able to spam click (manually) 10 times a second in exactly the right spot (I dry erase the box onto my monitor).

Macros, as stated, can be used with delays, though I'm still not sure that would work. Because there is a delay after the house is taken to 0 health before placement can occur, it would require a bit more timing than just +5 seconds.

At best, we'll have an RNG fight - who clicks at exactly the right instant but not a millisecond before. We know better than to expect best case, though.

What I'm MORE concerned about is actual hackers figuring out whatever they need to to be able to instantly transmit the placement as soon as a spot is available for it after demo. There will be 0 chance of beating this.

Legitimate players, in short, will be even more out of luck than they are. Thank you for addressing the issue, but I am begging you - PLEASE find a different solution.

AeonAuron
12-14-2014, 03:16 AM
TL;DR for the lazy folks:


This is absolutely the best way to ensure that ONLY hackers can win land grabs.

Astrothunderkat
12-14-2014, 09:22 AM
There isn't a "fix" for this.

Hacksheild needs to die, and a beefyer anti'cheat system needs to be implemented.

FireCait
12-14-2014, 01:23 PM
Hi all,

Thanks for this feedback. We agree that this isn't the end-all, be-all of fixes to this kind of issue. Much of what you are suggesting is actually close to some things we've been discussing internally. We always have to balance "what ideal fix do we want" with "what do we think is possible to receive."

Now that we've seen some progress on the issue, we're very interested to see how this works on live in practice, then see which further improvements make sense to push for. Hopefully those further improvements can happen more rapidly.

Yil
12-14-2014, 03:17 PM
Hopefully those further improvements can happen more rapidly.

As the Producer I would hope that you would insist these improvements happen more rapidly as opposed to just crossing your fingers.

Also, good start for the PTS. People have identified problems, and you're going to push it live anyway.

WhiteRaven
12-14-2014, 03:20 PM
I have to agree.

While, again, I'm glad to see changes coming, these changes are virtually guaranteed to be a step backward, not forward.

It is absolutely clear to those of us who actually PLAY this game and FIGHT for land that it's GOING to make things worse for anyone trying to play legitimately.

PLEASE take this out of the patch - there is no benefit whatsoever to pushing a mechanic live when it's already proven to be broken on test (which is, I assume as a long time tester and professional software developer, the point of testing).

Shalille
12-14-2014, 03:37 PM
We always have to balance "what ideal fix do we want" with "what do we think is possible to receive."

Now that we've seen some progress on the issue, we're very interested to see how this works on live in practice, then see which further improvements make sense to push for. Hopefully those further improvements can happen more rapidly.

Its clear you have to fight hard to get XL games to make these changes.


One possible thing that you could push for in the short term is the fix to tax scaling mentioned by Scapes some time ago.
http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?74252-Any-plans-to-control-Auroria-land-rush&p=763801&viewfull=1#post763801


It should be scaling beyond ten properties, we tested it internally and also found it was not. This was likely missed as our primary focus at the end of Open Beta was addressing the archeum drop rates and labor potion balance.

We have communicated this as a priority fix to XLGAMES.


Obviously XL games have been resisting, otherwise this would have been fixed by now. But it very much plays into the current land cheater situation.


Every day more and more land is gobbled up by single players with estates of 15-20+ large farms. The current tax system allows them to get away with it and make huge amounts of gold from the land for fairly little effort.
This gold pays for tax certs on the auction house, Apex for patron status, and more....in fact these ppl never have to pay a dime of real money to Trion at all, all their Tax certs and Apex are provided by the real struggling players attempting to get just a foothold on the property ladder. These land hoarders have become real and present parasites living off the backs of other players, and slowly destroying the game.

When new land goes for demolition, these guys have the Apex to make throwaway alt land macro grabbers to steal the land, or they can simply offer the highest gold price to the cheaters who grab it, driving up the prices of land in general out of the range of normal players.

Either way they get more land, their estates grow, and the struggling newer players are left behind more and more.

###

If you can push XL games and get this tax fix delivered, it would hugely effect the prices and availability of land , driving the land cheaters almost out of business. And making the game in general a much more enjoyable experience for the majority.

Shalille
12-14-2014, 03:44 PM
Also here is a suggestion reposted from elsewhere, for demolishing houses to combat macro abuse.

When a house is demolished, there is a shock wave and everyone in the 1200 range vicinity receives a concussion debuff.
The debuff prevents you from placing property, and is applied with a random duration of between 5-20 seconds.


This is a very simply way to turn the land grab into a random affair. And something that XL games could easily code I think.

Guizmo
12-14-2014, 03:51 PM
Shalille --> And what happen the land neightbours if they farm tree or potatoes ?

Shalille
12-14-2014, 04:05 PM
Shalille --> And what happen the land neightbours if they farm tree or potatoes ?

It wouldnt prevent you planting crops, only from placing a house/farm for a few seconds.

Flintgold
12-14-2014, 04:47 PM
Also here is a suggestion reposted from elsewhere, for demolishing houses to combat macro abuse.

When a house is demolished, there is a shock wave and everyone in the 1200 range vicinity receives a concussion debuff.
The debuff prevents you from placing property, and is applied with a random duration of between 5-20 seconds.


This is a very simply way to turn the land grab into a random affair. And something that XL games could easily code I think.

My first thought on this was...stay at 1201 range, use mount riders escape + shadow step &/or teleport, place house.

The best way would be to get with hackshield & get them to improve their code to detect 3rd party programs including mouse software that allows people to auto click "faster than humanly possible". Hackshield is obviously flawed as proven by the insane number of bots using scripts and strait up hacks.

Till then, I think the best solution to allow those who want to use the land to get it over those who just plan to sell it is to:

Set a bid system on the scarecrow/building to be demolished that will only appear in 5/10 minutes before it is to be destroyed. If the taxes are paid at the last minute this option would obviously go away. Winning bidder would recieve a 5/10 minute buff that would only let them place a house in that area. If no bids are placed, house would be demolished as normal and it would be a matter of first come first serve. Land grabbers with the intent of only selling the land would not pay more than 100-200g for most properties (less on most servers) as they would have to price the house insanely high to make any profit.

I am speaking as a 100% legit land grabber. I only get maybe 1 in 25 houses I go after as I can't beat the usual hacks & cheats and I think this system would greatly benefit those who are trying to get their first property or expand the land they currently have without having to pay a land grabber extra for something they did not really want anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

Spyrit
12-14-2014, 06:13 PM
Just make more land available, there is large spaces in the game not filled with anything, no mobs no nothing. The people who want to own land can't, and don't see a reason to pay a sub, I can't believe why xlgames is being so short sighted on this, by limiting land they are limiting the number of players who pay a sub, on each server.

Dey
12-14-2014, 06:40 PM
Another idea to help against hackers (again not a 100% fix) is to have the time between burning it down and when you can place, be random.

Or hey have a Captcha popup that has to be completed.

jiggu
12-14-2014, 06:54 PM
Would be cool if they had houses in the cities like Tibia had, that players could rent. So either you build your own house and pay a cheaper tax or a high tax but no initial cost.

Flintgold
12-14-2014, 07:22 PM
Stealing this from another poster:

Another change I would like to see is that plots that are about to Expire, the date and time should not be visible to players or bots, only the server should know internally when a plot is about to expire, the server and the owner, no one else should be able to see it, lets put an end to 15-20 real players around a house all spamming plant building with 1 guy hacking and getting it all of the time.

Remove their ability to scan for property, and players will simply discover land plots by chance which has to be way more fair than anything else in game at the moment.

BlackSheep1121
12-14-2014, 08:08 PM
Thanks for making a topic on this. I'm happy something is being worked on, but are concerned that this makes ping even more of an issue for my fellow Australians for example. A lot of time I don't win the ping war and miss out, but at least I can play the lottery and spam the ♥♥♥♥ out of my mouse button. Now with this change if I screw up by .01 secs, Ill have a countdown timer and disqualified from being able to have a chance at the plot. I also agree with others that this makes macro land grabbing even easier and is not a step forward.

Please follow CCPs example and start communicating and taking feed back from your community seriously and reconsider pushing this live in its current form. Things are on the improve, but man there's a lot of goodwill to repair.

Maysa
Aranzeb

Landowner
12-14-2014, 09:11 PM
As someone who primary obtains lands by sniping it from people who manually demolition,
This is a bad change in both land sniping and from people who want to self swap out their plots to farms or other.

IMO, the best fix is by not showing the demolition dates at all since the land hacking problem is due to the fact that they know when it will demolition.
That way the only people who get the demolitions are the ones that are actively hunting for them.

it's a whole lot better than a blind bid system like mabinogi where only the rich will win out.

talizzar
12-14-2014, 11:35 PM
There should be a mechanism for the owner to retain the property while doing an up or down grade. If I want to add on to my house in RL I get a permit........so we need a land permit and that will allow use to safely modify our land.

The 5 second thing just requires you to be patient...obviously the smart and scripters will have this timed out so what I think should happen is the time between the building going down all the way and it becoming open needs to be random. Also move the accept window around. This will help defeat the scripters or macro users.

An alternative method would be that when a property goes down and there are XX people attempting to place those people that have a building placed will be placed into a lottery of sorts and the winner determined by random. This would be on failure to pay taxes not voluntary destructions.

I would like to see a system where at the very least your family and or guild would have protection for safe transfer.

The real issue is that there are too many place holders because you have to do the quests to get 16 x 16 farms. At this point we need more farm land than houses. Is there any thought to making 16's available some other way? I could see these being a marketplace item. The other option would be to allow us to sell unfinished homes with an appraisal.

WhiteRaven
12-15-2014, 01:40 AM
You know... not listing demo dates is not a bad idea. Or maybe only list the date it will be into "past due" status on taxes. "Roughly a week" is accurate enough that people can at least plan to be on the lookout.

This will ONLY work if there is NO status available to the client to indicate accurate demo times, as then it will be even easier for true client hackers to snipe spots.

Durbincs
12-15-2014, 04:01 AM
Why not just throw a dice who get the higher value win the spot to place a house for 5 sec, if he not placing his property under this amount of time then ppl within the range can throw dice again. Simple and not related to any ping and other things.

Siobhan
12-15-2014, 04:23 AM
@Firecait:

All the suggestions in the world will not change 2 basic facts:
1. Flipping land is THE most profitable activity in the game
2. Because of #1, this is where the most intense hacker competition will be.

I firmly believe that the reason for this is that it's way too expensive to buy or sell a house legitimately using appraisal certificates. Only those who have abused the system can afford it, and thy're not going to build something first in order to sell it. In other words, it's way too profitable to hack/flip/hack again.

Therefore, I do have a couple of suggestions to try and help the situation:

1. Remove the 5-second click rule and go back to the insta-click. All the 5-second click rule does is give hackers more leverage in their coding. Legitimate hand-clickers will NEVER be able to count an exact 5 seconds. At least with the insta-click legitimate players have that outside chance of getting the land.

2. Hit the hackers in their pocketbook. A few suggestions: Change the initial "build" tax requirement to include the first week's taxes IN FULL instead of a minor deposit and an email for the rest. Require that all placed property remain for 1 week (the time for the first tax payment to end) before being able to demo. Fix the tax scaling thing. The harder you make it on hackers, the better. Legitimate land hunters won't mind paying the taxes, and they'll keep their land for more than a week.

Finally, if a player is dead/stealthed/not in direct line of sight, they can't place a property...at all...period.

Anyways, that's my two copper...

TL;DR:
Get rid of the 5-second click timer and make it economically unfeasable to hack for land.

Exavion
12-15-2014, 07:46 AM
Im convinced tax changes dont affect hackers.

Also the first thing I thought of was how 5 sec timer is worse and that a random second timer with lockout periods would be the way to go.

Khaler
12-15-2014, 07:56 AM
There is a very simple fix for the land barons/hoarders:

Do not allow anyone to place a land if they have ANY unbuilt properties.

Simply requiring them to build the houses they snag will *drastically* slow them down and allow regular users to get property.

Muteat
12-15-2014, 08:45 AM
As a legit land grabber being accused tons of times as hacker and reported almost everyday, i feel bad sometimes for doing it. It is an easy way to get gold without too much effort, like i said I am totally legit, no macros, no 3rd party software, and nothing different than just spam button in right spot at the right time. My location should not be an advantage to grab land over the otherones and it should be fixed, i am clear with that.
The 5 seconds delay will stop me and other legit land grabbers to keep doing it, that is clear, but stop the other legit players too, it will be an advantage to the bots and package hackers. It will fix part of the issue and if it is implemented i will deal with that.
Increasing taxes will not affect me too much, i will adjust to pay them charging more in each land sold. I just being sincere.
A great solution is what i read from somebody here, cannot grab another land on server if that account has an unbuild or unfinished house or farm. This will slow me, the bots, and the hackers down a lot and give the otherones more chances of getting land.
I know some will reply this post with hate telling the best way to fix it for me to stop doing it, and that is understandable. But remember if is not me will be somebody else, it is a pretty easy way to get gold, and gold is everything on this game. At least i am not hoarding the land, i will sell it immediately.
I know something have to be done to fix this disadvantage and that is my 2 cents.

Bankasauras
12-15-2014, 09:07 AM
Why not add a timer for build completion, like Boats. This will force people into constructing every farm/house and will show initiative for use. Yes hackers can acquire these items, but it is one more step closer to become a fair fight for land.

At what point will you be happy when you lose a land grab from someone else? This game is built on RNG, clicking to see who gets it first is RNG especially with this +5 sec addition.

Muteat
12-15-2014, 09:36 AM
Why not add a timer for build completion, like Boats. This will force people into constructing every farm/house and will show initiative for use. Yes hackers can acquire these items, but it is one more step closer to become a fair fight for land.

At what point will you be happy when you lose a land grab from someone else? This game is built on RNG, clicking to see who gets it first is RNG especially with this +5 sec addition.

First thing, no all land grabbers are hackers, just get that clear. With that idea you will stop land hoarders not the grabbers. Remember I grab and sell I ussually do not hold land more than 24 hours.

Siobhan
12-15-2014, 10:02 AM
Why not add a timer for build completion, like Boats. ....

While your suggestion is fair-minded on the surface, it will also mean that people will lose their hard-won property because the way the game is designed, you have to take land where and WHEN you can. If you're hunting for a place for your thatched while trying to amass the mats to build it, you have to take the first available plot you can get, whether you have the mats or not.

It won't affect the "online 24/7" players, nor will it affect hackers who can insta-build anything. Those who have lives are going to be paying the price of a build timer. It will take longer than 3 or 4 days to get all the stone together for a 10-pack for the thatched... It's even more of an issue with larger properties that take 20 or 30 stone packs, etc.

In reality, as long as the taxes are paid, people shouldn't be penalized for not building on someone else's schedule.

In any case, what we're discussing here is the 5-second rule, which has effectively killed any legit player's chances by making it actually easier for a hacker to get a plot with pre-programing an exact 5-second click, which simply cannot be matched by any manual clicker.

Badditude
12-15-2014, 01:14 PM
Why not make land grabs a dice roll. LOL it gives everyone who is there an even chance.

core2099
12-15-2014, 02:08 PM
A dice roll to all present for demo winner gets plot.
And a market item that can protect plots so you can change houses to farms
Fair for everyone and not ping dependent.
Another change that would make sense would change appraisal certs so that you get one and set the price. Why the hell should you need 14 certs to sell an item for 1400.
Change price on market place to make up for lost revenue due to players needing less.

adoman
12-15-2014, 04:24 PM
Why not make land grabs a dice roll. LOL it gives everyone who is there an even chance.

This can be exploited by multi-boxers or even just by having a large guild show up.

Siobhan
12-15-2014, 05:10 PM
ok... how about this one:

Everyone can only click ONCE...then everyone who has clicked becomes the RNG "pool" and it's given randomly to someone out of anyone who clicked within the first 10 seconds after the "battle End" message? It would fit with the RNG theme of the game, and everyone who shows up would have an equal chance, hackers and legit players alike... ;)

(While I know this is only an idea, I also know that it's not realistic either... just grasping at straws here...lol)

Landowner
12-16-2014, 06:18 AM
This can be exploited by multi-boxers or even just by having a large guild show up.

That doesn't make any difference. strength in numbers with or without a dice roll mechanic is still strength in numbers.
RNG Lottery for land is just as bad idea thanks to above, you're just swapping 1 mechanic for another which doesn't reward vigilance or doing prep work.

Removal of the date/time for demolitions is the best option there is and should have been the default since unless you're going to be a camping a housing zones 24/7 aka doing your home work like snipers do, you won't get land since you've not earned it.

Adding a market place item to "protect land" is the equivalent of adding a market place item that lets you de-summon your trade ship when it's in combat to avoid it getting destroyed.


If you're going to put these kinds of restrictions / nerfs on land,
you may as well give instanced versions of land for patron/patron guilds AND allowing F2P members to get land but with 2x or 3x the current tax cost. That way everybody with their landbased pve carebear mentality is happy since it seems the only real complainers are the ones that don't have that *1 plot* they feel entitled to get for being a subscriber.

Nephelem
12-16-2014, 06:44 AM
Just fix the insane cert system. I understand the need to try and maximize sales through the cash shop, but the current system of a cert for every 100 gold of sale value has to absolutely be LOSING you money. The focus is constantly on demolished houses because there is basically no real estate market at all that the typical player can trust in. No one wants to check "Trusted trader" threads and "Known scammer" lists just to buy a piece of property. If you couldn't make a valid in-game system to replace this hodgepodge disaster that would be one thing, but you already have one in game and have decided to make it completely unusable for anything other than a 200 gold or less 8x8 sale. I really, truly cannot see how this isn't apparent to you guys.

DisGuy
12-16-2014, 07:07 AM
here a different idea to solve the land hacker issue...

add auction function for expired plots and everyone who goes to the plot demo can bid for it.

or something like that:rolleyes:

CptColosus
12-16-2014, 10:57 AM
You know... not listing demo dates is not a bad idea. Or maybe only list the date it will be into "past due" status on taxes. "Roughly a week" is accurate enough that people can at least plan to be on the lookout.

This will ONLY work if there is NO status available to the client to indicate accurate demo times, as then it will be even easier for true client hackers to snipe spots.

i think thats the best way to do it if we don't know when plot get available NOW it will be random who get it since Hacker/sniper won't be standing there waiting for the last minute to the plot expire but mostly Hacker annoy me to be honnest legit player who get land im fine its only hacker that annoy me...:mad:

Ilyanna
12-16-2014, 12:16 PM
Hi all,

Thanks for this feedback. We agree that this isn't the end-all, be-all of fixes to this kind of issue. Much of what you are suggesting is actually close to some things we've been discussing internally. We always have to balance "what ideal fix do we want" with "what do we think is possible to receive."

Now that we've seen some progress on the issue, we're very interested to see how this works on live in practice, then see which further improvements make sense to push for. Hopefully those further improvements can happen more rapidly.

Has there been some consideration made when a player purposely demolishes their house/farm to replace it with a different design?
Are more people going to lose their own land to people sneaking around looking for victims trying to swap their own land?

Siobhan
12-16-2014, 12:48 PM
Just fix the insane cert system. I understand the need to try and maximize sales through the cash shop, but the current system of a cert for every 100 gold of sale value has to absolutely be LOSING you money. The focus is constantly on demolished houses because there is basically no real estate market at all that the typical player can trust in. No one wants to check "Trusted trader" threads and "Known scammer" lists just to buy a piece of property. If you couldn't make a valid in-game system to replace this hodgepodge disaster that would be one thing, but you already have one in game and have decided to make it completely unusable for anything other than a 200 gold or less 8x8 sale. I really, truly cannot see how this isn't apparent to you guys.

^^^This!

I have been championing the idea of either reduce the cost, or make it an in-game item available for gold from an NPC since launch. At the very least, it should be 1 cert for 8x8's and 16x16's and two for 24x24 (3 for 28x28, 4 for anything larger.)

If people could actually afford to buy and sell land, maybe there would be an active real estate market and some of the "Wah, I can't find land" issues would go away.

But, again, this thread is about the 5-second rule, and I still maintain that all it does is give land hackers that much more of an opportunity to grab land over a manual click, which can not possibly measure an exact 5 seconds.

BlackSheep1121
12-16-2014, 05:12 PM
And now that this is being released without considering our feedback (what a surprise....), I will have to actually write a keyboard/mouse macro so I can place my mansion next week without loosing my land. Thanks for making me have to cheat........... At least I have the PTS to test it on first right? Sigh.

Animaester
12-16-2014, 06:57 PM
Make the build pop up appear anywhere randomly on the player's screen. That way, you can't just spam click one particular spot.

visdada
12-16-2014, 07:08 PM
This can be exploited by multi-boxers or even just by having a large guild show up.
Not if you add a roll fee. Like 50g per roll. Sure you can roll with 100 people to ensure you get the land but that just means you pay 5k to get the land.

SencneS
12-17-2014, 08:38 AM
5 seconds timer gives macros an advantage...

I'm able to click the mouse button on average 650 times a minute, that's no joke. I cracked just shy of 700 clicks a minute by rolling between two mouse buttons but I was sore after. I used the website http://www.kongregate.com/games/wolfups/how-fast-can-you-click to test it.

I've won land and I've also lost to what appears to be INSTANT wins. There is a video showing someone win a house and it's SO FAST the dude STANDING on the construction frame doesn't even fall to the ground.

To be honest, the quickest way to resolve auto-clickers, macros, even manual speed clickers that can hit 10-12 clicks a second is by randomizing the build button location. You could also do a "catcha" - Once you hit the build button, you need type in whatever jumbled word or letters you see.

While I would suffer a decline in winning the land I want, I'm also not a land Barron, my family and I own the surrounding land and we only need one more property to have 64x64 consecutive area plot. And this is the ONLY land I go after, I could care less about plots over the hill.

If I don't win that last plot we'll simply buy it from them - the way it should be.

Kaedalus
12-22-2014, 12:50 PM
All this seems to be doing is letting 3-4 people control all land demos, this isn't a fix this isn't even a bandaid its a gun to the knee of any potential person trying to land grab esp for the first time, no one stands a ghost of a chance vs people using programs or macros. atm most the ones i've been to its been the same 3 people gobbling all the land.. at least before it was about 14 different people.

hulan
12-22-2014, 06:30 PM
honestly ,i think the 5 second land placement is a wrong idea , because now its just the hackers with their bot who can claim the land ! we don't have time to click now because of the 5s nor the right moment to click if you dont have the message of the end of the fight!
I think trion must come back with the previous system that allow at less a ( little ) luck for all

talizzar
12-23-2014, 12:26 AM
This change probably has hurt more honest players than the scripters. The confirm window needs to move around the screen or some other mechanic to make the system better.

nedrapter
01-04-2015, 01:18 AM
Want to counter automated software, bots etc? I think it's simple. Put a captcha code popping before you can press "build" . Will give an advantage to people who type fast, but that's all.