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View Full Version : An easy interim fix that "might"fix the land grab issue



Litre
01-20-2015, 06:50 AM
There is currently still an uproar on land starved servers, certain players are getting most of the land, the perception is the 5 second delay between clicks did nothing, that seems to be the case. We don't believe good ping alone can account for winning 80-90% of land grabs.

http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?154662-Naima-land-hacker-selling-land-for-real-money

I know XLGames can't implement the real fix (RNG system where interested players can roll on the land) anytime soon, we know the 5 second delay was the easiest thing you could possibly do.

Ok if that's possible, is it possible to have the land become open, a random number of seconds after it is demolished? How about RNG chance placing a design fails (unless you destroy your own property, then give the player a buff allowing them 100% chance to place 1 property etc)



Why? There's a few possibilities for how they are hacking the land grabs and this might make it pretty tough to workaround.

1. Packet injection - now Trion should have detection for this already, they obviously can't spam the packets, Trion will see it. It's more likely that they send a delayed packet for the land claim, exactly a few seconds before demolition, not sure on this one because the time it takes to demolish is variable. If the person hacking with packets did the attacking (usually the case) timing this might be possible.

2. Macros - from the last land grab I was at, where the person in the link won (again) he did the attacking, usually people think, let someone else destroy it and then I'll plant the design asap. Once again it's likely a macro, following the last hit immediately run a macro to plant the design.

In both cases it seems the animation for the old building disappearing has a delay, there must be a delay added to after the old structure is gone, and the new structure can be placed, it should be random!




So yes we know Trion can't modify the game's code, but we know forcing a click delay is possible, they just did it.

A few things you should entertain, not knowing the underlying code I wouldn't know how hard these are to implement, but I'm going with the easiest fixes I can think of though.


1. Put in a random number of seconds of delay after demolition, during which nobody within range to place a design can do anything? Ok so the guy next door planting his crops can't do anything for 5-10 seconds, not a bit deal. Land demos don't happen so often it should become an issue.


2. Placing a design down within the vicinity of a recently expired plot, has a random chance of failure. (If you could make it NOT affect someone legitimately destroying their own property for the purposes of placing something else / moving designs that'd be great - maybe if you destroy your own property you get a buff that makes u immune to RNG fail for placing).

Perhaps when a property expires, an AOE debuff/buff is placed on anyone in range where they suffer from an RNG chance the property isn't placed. Ok someone could probably teleport in really quick and place it fast, but they'd have to move in from out of range, and the chance of success should be high enough maybe 50%+ that the several people camping the property would have a few seconds head start on someone trying to jump in and position the property.


3. Create an RNG lockbox - maybe 50s or something negligible, much like the ones you give out during events, it has a chance of dropping an untradeable item that is required to place property (or nothing drops) - you can only have one of these items, but unlimited lockboxes.

Once again, implement an RNG chance placing a design fails, but also require that placing a design consumes that item that drops from the lockbox.

You already have item requirements to place designs (lumber, tax, mats for a drydock) etc, this should be doable. The scenario we want is everyone gets a chance, if anyone fails, quickly open a few more lockboxes until you get the item again, try to place again before the others.

For legitimate demos of ones own property for a move / change of structure, maybe after you demo a structure you get a buff that makes you immune to the RNG chance of failure to place a design.

Aeducan76
01-20-2015, 07:23 AM
2. Macros - from the last land grab I was at, where the person in the link won (again) he did the attacking, usually people think, let someone else destroy it and then I'll plant the design asap. Once again it's likely a macro, following the last hit immediately run a macro to plant the design.


This alone states you have no idea how even legal placement works.

Shalille
01-20-2015, 07:29 AM
This alone states you have no idea how even legal placement works.

Actually that is how a lot of cheater macros still run.....

As soon as the scarecrow dies from the last hit, there is exactly 20 seconds from the server before the new one can be placed.

So if they start their auto click spam macro immediately as it dies, it will make a successful click every 5 seconds due to the 5 second delay rule, after 3-4 of these delays, they will get their 4th click on the spot almost exactly after the 20 seconds expires, beating pretty much any manual clickers.

Starting their macro exactly after the last hit is what makes it so easy for them to time it.

###

My best solution would be , as soon as the actual confirmation build button appears, it is greyed out for a random 5-10 second period before the user can click it.

AngelsDust
01-20-2015, 07:35 AM
1. Packet injection - now Trion should have detection for this already, they obviously can't spam the packets, Trion will see it. It's more likely that they send a delayed packet for the land claim, exactly a few seconds before demolition, not sure on this one because the time it takes to demolish is variable. If the person hacking with packets did the attacking (usually the case) timing this might be possible.


Like Aeducan said, it also appear you lack knowledge of injections/hacking.

Kloee
01-20-2015, 07:57 AM
Best solution... Make tax/demolition time not visible to public.

Aeducan76
01-20-2015, 08:17 AM
This is hilarious.


Actually that is how a lot of cheater macros still run.....

And you know that because...?



As soon as the scarecrow dies from the last hit, there is exactly 20 seconds from the server before the new one can be placed. -

So if they start their auto click spam macro immediately as it dies, it will make a successful click every 5 seconds due to the 5 second delay rule, after 3-4 of these delays, they will get their 4th click on the spot almost exactly after the 20 seconds expires, beating pretty much any manual clickers.


Is it really twenty secs? I just watch the health bar every time adrenaline pumping.

And lol that would be a stupid bad macro. For you need at least two clicks in quick succession to place the building, of course it may be possible that after the 4 th ppl insert a macroed quick 5 one.

But then again, and i know that because i click manually, it seems the 2. click is always a bit laggy and that only the third counts, itīs just a feeling, canīt really say which click triggers the Build action.

Also a reason why i scale down graphics before a demo, hoping it might benefit the generation of the Build window and it accepting the cruicial click.

But every 5 secs 1 click? I will beat you (or better the macro guy) anytime.


Starting their macro exactly after the last hit is what makes it so easy for them to time it.

Watching the health bar disappear is what makes me click even more timely, because the time when the health bar really reaches 0 is not as exact.


###My best solution would be , as soon as the actual confirmation build button appears, it is greyed out for a random 5-10 second period before the user can click it.

That might offer a better chance to all but it still comes all down to reaction time and latency, so people who canīt win against regular competitors now, will loose that way too.


Best solution... Make tax/demolition time not visible to public.

This is a nice thought, like IDOC in UO, but the building should state that it is going to demo some time like "is in perfect condition" (taxes paid), "looks a bit worn" (1 week to demo), "shows cracks and wear" (4 ish days), "is in dire condition" (>1 day), and in respect to IDOC " is in danger of collapsing" (lets say something between 2 hrs -1 Min left.

*Edited possible conditions and timeframes - canīt recall the exact UO ones*

Cracker
01-20-2015, 08:24 AM
Please tell me what land starved server you happen to be playing on because I am not sure that one actually exists. The stupid price of appraisals alone has totally killed that market and open free land may not be open in the most popular spots, there are plenty of opportunities to acquire open land or CHEAP land. I hardly considering land a problem at this point in the game.

Shalille
01-20-2015, 08:29 AM
For you need at least two clicks in quick succession to place the building, of course it may be possible that after the 4 th ppl insert a macroed quick 5 one.

Their auto click macros send thousands of click per second, or course it will send a 5th click instantly after the 4th to complete the placement.

There is no more 5 second delay at that point, exactly on the 20 second mark, it all opens up to free for all spam clicking, whoever starts their spam clicking as close after the 20 seconds is likely to win.

The series of four * 5 second delays, which countdown before that simply holds the auto- clickers like a race starting gun, conveniently adding up to 20 seconds total, and once the 20 sec is up, off they go.

Aeducan76
01-20-2015, 08:41 AM
Their auto click macros send thousands of click per second, or course it will send a 5th click instantly after the 4th to complete the placement.

There is no more 5 second delay at that point, exactly on the 20 second mark, it all opens up to free for all spam clicking, whoever starts their spam clicking as close after the 20 seconds is likely to win.

The series of four * 5 second delays, which countdown before that simply holds the auto- clickers like a race starting gun, conveniently adding up to 20 seconds total, and once the 20 sec is up, off they go.

Now whereīs the sport in that.

I thought you meant that, but it sounded... funny ;) Nevertheless in case of just an auto-click macro you still have a decent chance to win, for they start it means they have a small human err factor in it, because they did start with a slight delay between the last bit of health whopped down and their reaction to start the timer.

Itīs not like a tool that analyzes network traffic and injects in mere milliseconds. But i guess it would be easier to analyze color composition on the screen, who knows.

Anyways - train guys and gals Online Click Test (http://cookie.riimu.net/speed/), you donīt need macros, 12 clicks per seconds is my best and with the right timing this is sufficient.

Shalille
01-20-2015, 08:53 AM
Yes they will have some delay using that method, its the most basic auctoclicker macro used.

A more advanced one will pause exactly 20 seconds, then spam click. Again the key timing is when they start it exactly at the death of the scarecrow.

###

If your winning with 12 clicks per sec, I dont think your coming up against these people, either by luck or your server just doesnt have major land issues in the first place.

Aeducan76
01-20-2015, 08:55 AM
Thatīs why i tried at Tayang / East. Lost 2, Won 2, bought the third. Not too bad. But i heard the bad ones are on the west side.

Edit and itīs the first 3 clicks that have to come off really fast - reaction + 3 clicks < 1 sec = decent chance afaik. But i may be wrong or just lucky.

Bubbli
01-20-2015, 08:55 AM
The root of the problem at least on our server is one person has cornered the housing market completely. That is why litre is talking about a housing starved server. Is because the day to day demos and flips are now done by a person that has made it a real business for supposedly real money, just like the gold spammers.

As far as fixes, anything that does not include a random assignment of a winner will not fix the root problem.

Not showing dates? Land scanners would most likely still see it.

Random demo? Packet injection would always win.

Macro land grabs were never 100%, it always was a toss up who would win on my server.

After the 5 second change, no real player ever wins with the new injection hackers. And it has run off all real players from even trying anymore.

Aeducan76
01-20-2015, 09:07 AM
As far as fixes, anything that does not include a random assignment of a winner will not fix the root problem.

I understand the frustration with not getting land, but a lottery? Really, i stated this on a different thread, statistics are a ♥♥♥♥♥ - what do you do if one guy wins 10 lotterys in a row? Is a lottery fair? Nope.


Not showing dates? Land scanners would most likely still see it.

Well, that might happen because of the client-side architecture of AA, but at least worth a try.


Random demo? Packet injection would always win.

Have yet to witness it, it seems.


Macro land grabs were never 100%, it always was a toss up who would win on my server.

I doubt you can have a 100% chance even with packet injection. But thatīs just me.


After the 5 second change, no real player ever wins with the new injection hackers. And it has run off all real players from even trying anymore.

What server was that again?

koyuta
01-20-2015, 09:09 AM
if possible they could tie the demo to the character. say if someone manually demos their property there could be a say 10sec delay in witch no one other than the property owner can place something there. but if demoed by unpaid taxes the land can be grabbed by anyone as for stopping landgrabber if they put a chance roll like they do with loot in parties. that could help. just set a cap to like 5 players for each property and when the demo is up let a dice roll decide who gets the plot. if no one shows up within 10secs of complete demo the land is open for any to come by and take

Aeducan76
01-20-2015, 09:17 AM
- 10 secs is too small a timeframe if you want to bring down multiple plots for a larger building (but itīs a good idea)
- Cap for 5 Players is a bad one so 5 guys talk about it, show up 6 hrs. early (or more) and seal the plot.
- If no one shows the land is already free to take for anybody.

I like the first idea, where the previous owner has an extended right to rebuild in the area - would prevent the family rip-off posted some days ago, when some guy was blocking a family plan to build a bigger building jumping in after their demo.

Galix
01-20-2015, 09:19 AM
Why hasn't land space been increased?

Because scarcity holds a better market :)

Shadfly
01-20-2015, 09:26 AM
Macro would be simple:
Target the property, put your mouse pointer over the spot where the build button comes up then launch your macro...

I would put the macro code here, but I don't want to get banned. It would launch off of target health though.

I use the stop watch and due to brain lag and server lag, I start my clicking spam at 19.70 seconds. I can get the build window but can't seem to beat the land grabbers since the 5 second change.
I just have to buy them. One of the land grabbers doesn't like my toon so I have to pay the other one a small fee up front to show up and get the property for me so I can buy it from the one that does like me... The land hack users control who gets property and who doesn't.

Ideally, I would think one of the "unbuilt property" flags or "unpaid taxes" flags would help curb the land grabbers (i.e. you can only have so many properties in limbo). I also see tax certs were up to 3gp each. That should help slow them a bit. Maybe if it becomes unprofitable enough, they will stop grabbing so many.

Siobhan
01-20-2015, 10:05 AM
As long as the system we use to grab expiring land continues to be as it is, "normal" clickers won't have a chance when up against a good macroer or hacker. Unfortunately, it would take a ton of coding to actually change the mechanics.

One thing I do support fully is that if a person demos his/her own property, that there be a 5 minute window in which they could replace their property and nobody could take it. That way, everyone who has worked so hard for the land can actually move, rotate, or replace their farm with something else if they wish.

Aeducan76
01-20-2015, 10:17 AM
I use the stop watch ...

Erm... you trust the stop watch instead of watching the screen/Health bar? I am actually not suprised you never win.

Shadfly
01-20-2015, 10:33 AM
Line above what you quoted... based on health. I start the stop watch when I see the health is zero.
19.70 seconds later, I start my clicking.