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futile
02-25-2015, 08:12 AM
The Small Stuff:

-Halnaak boss on floor 2 has poo water that spams angry korean text at you.
-Halnaak boss on floor 2 has an add spawning mechanic that is very buggy/inconsistent. Sometimes doesn't happen at all.
-Alexander boss on floor 3 has at least one buff that is still in Korean.
-The Obsidian Shield is undeniably overpowered. The extent to which it outscales non-obsidian counterparts in the primary stat a shield exists for (armor/defense) is incredible. A celestial T5 shield has almost 50% more armor than a Celestial Delphinad Earth Shield.

Major concerns:

The Archeum problem. Is it a problem?

People long touted that the Library would be the problem-fixer everyone has needed for Archeum. That essences drop like candy. They lied to you. It does do some good with Archeum, though. What the Library patch does is it increases your return on Sunlight Archeum. How does it do this?

Before you would need to craft 7 epherium weapons, on average, to receive a Delphinad weapon. Illustrious weapons were almost always machined into upgradeable illustrious weapons. Magnificents were so useless that people would sometimes salvage 3 of them just to make a new mag. The severe waste of Sunlight Archeum we saw there all on the quest for an Eph weapon with a good stat-roll, or the lucky Delphinad proc. That's gone now. Now you only need 2 Illustrious and 1 Magnificent weapon to get a better than Epherium level weapon, with a top stat roll, with a good passive to boot. Add any random epherium to it and it closes half of the gap between epherium and delphi. Three more epheriums and you have yourself a delphi weapon with a perfect roll and a good passive. This system severely reduces the net amount of sunlight archeum used in creating very good Epherium to Delphinad equivalent weapons and shields. As a result, will an Archeum buff still be needed? We'll see.

It's not unreasonable to believe that Trion would like to see how Archeum plays out in this patch before making changes to it and I hope they do not rush to conclusions with the naysaying.

Library coinpurses give too little reward for the labor cost. Let's ignore the focus on Archeum and look at net return for opening the purses.

Here are some tests from other forum users. Note that both of these results are generous results. These aren't unlucky or bad results:

500 purses
This batch of purses got a sunlight archeum essence, which leaves it on the higher end of valuable batch openings.
Value of items from purses: 329g
Value of gold from purses: 156g
Total: 485g
Labor: 7500
Labor value @ 55g/1000 (labor pot price): 412g
Net profit: 73g

1100 purses
This guy included drops from his 11 stolen purses so this guy has more drops counted here than he actually got. I valued fine lunarites @ 50g each.
Value of items from purses: 620g
Value of gold from purses: 352g
Total: 972g
Labor: 16500
Labor value @ 55g/1000: 907g
Net profit: 65g

Conclusion:

We have to consider that if the library was in the game right now, library purses would barely be worth the labor to open them. This is not good considering the work that goes into farming them. The major cause of this is Divine Gifts which severely devalued moonpoints and sunpoints. Divine gifts gutted public perception of this purse. Without divine gifts, I feel we would see people singing praises of library purses and their high droprate of the regrade points. A second cause is high labor potion costs. Regardless, we can expect that as Divine Gifts are phased out and sunpoints and moonpoints rise in price, Librarian Coinpurses should hopefully become increasingly worth opening.

Library purses cost too much labor relative to the availability of labor in the game.

Library purses cost 15 labor to open. Green ones cost 150. Max daily labor regen is 2880. Let's run some scenarios.

A guy who stayed logged in 24/7 comes home and hits up the library. He spends somewhere between 30 to 120 minutes leveling and farming depending on his gear and player skill and he comes away with 160 purses and 3 green purses. He opens these purses and he's out of labor for the day unless he starts chugging labor pots. He can't farm or do trade runs. He can't fish. After an hour or two of leveling. An hour.

A hardcore player spends 4 hours a day grinding the library in his super amazing gear. He's getting 250 coin purses an hour and 5 green purses and he's rocking 90k larceny for labor cost reduction. This dude's chugging his labor pots on cooldown every 12 hours on his character and his 5 level 15 alts. This guy is getting 14880 labor per day and he's so awesome. He finishes smashing through his mobs and opens his coin purses. It cost him 14400 labor. He has 480 labor left. 480. He can't do anything else that uses labor, and this hardcore player has 6 more hours he wants to dump into AA.

Conclusion:

High labor costs in the library are going to leave people extremely labor restricted and gate people off of doing more library as well as doing other labor intensive content.

The Library locks players away in a PvE instance in a game marketed around its open world pvp. In addition, the open-world population has already been in decline on all servers.

Are the above problems with the library purses actually good? Maybe it's a good thing that outside of leveling characters to 55, players don't really have great incentive to be in the library compared to other money-making methods out in the world? That farming Jesters purses in PvP-contested areas should be superior to safe zone library grinding? At the end of the day things like fishing, trading, and farming are already gated by high labor costs relative to their static gold income so I suppose it doesn't much matter.

What did all of this show us?

In the end these findings all point to one thing: labor is too expensive and limited. It's a problem on live and the PTS does nothing but magnify it. We need Alpha-level labor regen. We need it. It seems you won't give us that, though (why?), so we need this:

http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?35572-ArcheAge-Open-Beta-Marketplace-Changes&p=386979#post386979

* The Workman's Compensation labor potion now has a reduced cooldown (four hours) and reduced price.

It seemed like the devil back in its day but those half price labor potions would actually be extremely good for the game and good for this upcoming patch. (except without the absurdly low cooldown). Limited and expensive labor is a gate to content in this game. It's extremely limiting. It hurts farmers, it hurts traders, it hurts fishermen, it hurts the pirates who hunt these players, and it hurts guild interaction and guild warring between all of these activities. This isn't a phone game. People shouldn't play for an hour and feel like they have to stop. Please fix it.

jaximus
02-25-2015, 08:54 AM
The purses should have a higher drop rate on archeum than the jester's /s

Kirah
02-25-2015, 09:17 AM
While I agree with most of your post, I can't agree with this:


It seems you won't give us that, though (why?), so we need this:

http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?35572-ArcheAge-Open-Beta-Marketplace-Changes&p=386979#post386979

* The Workman's Compensation labor potion now has a reduced cooldown (four hours) and reduced price.

It seemed like the devil back in its day but those half price labor potions would actually be extremely good for the game and good for this upcoming patch. (except without the absurdly low cooldown).

It was like the devil because of the 4 hours cooldown, that would've made this game more p2w than it is at the moment.
Reducing the cost of labor potions is not a solution (although it would be fair, since I think they're overpriced), but another push of the cash shop.

The game should be (more) enjoyable with Patron, not using the cash shop.

Also, the purses drop rate is really poor and a total waste of labor, I wouldn't use labor potions for that.

MalFunction
02-25-2015, 09:56 AM
in don't think the drop rate is as much of a problem as the labor it costs to open them is. On live, noble purses have a higher drop rate of archeum but only drops up to shards, jesters can drop up to crystals. Given that librarian purses drop up to essences, it could be reasoned that the drop rates may be a bit lower, but the labor it costs to open them makes them less of an attractive choice.

noyre
02-25-2015, 10:28 AM
The Small Stuff:

The Archeum problem. Is it a problem?

People long touted that the Library would be the problem-fixer everyone has needed for Archeum. That essences drop like candy. They lied to you. It does do some good with Archeum, though. What the Library patch does is it increases your return on Sunlight Archeum. How does it do this?

Before you would need to craft 7 epherium weapons, on average, to receive a Delphinad weapon. Illustrious weapons were almost always machined into upgradeable illustrious weapons. Magnificents were so useless that people would sometimes salvage 3 of them just to make a new mag. The severe waste of Sunlight Archeum we saw there all on the quest for an Eph weapon with a good stat-roll, or the lucky Delphinad proc. That's gone now. Now you only need 2 Illustrious and 1 Magnificent weapon to get a better than Epherium level weapon, with a top stat roll, with a good passive to boot. Add any random epherium to it and it closes half of the gap between epherium and delphi. Three more epheriums and you have yourself a delphi weapon with a perfect roll and a good passive. This system severely reduces the net amount of sunlight archeum used in creating very good Epherium to Delphinad equivalent weapons and shields. As a result, will an Archeum buff still be needed? We'll see.

It's not unreasonable to believe that Trion would like to see how Archeum plays out in this patch before making changes to it and I hope they do not rush to conclusions with the naysaying.



you aren't thinking about a basilar thing: with actual request of archeum, how many people go around with a crafted weapon? 10%? 20%? and how many of them have a delphinad? because now many people have an hasla weapon, so the request of sunlight archeum is not so high, after this patch all server will need to craft at least 1 epherium each player (Cursed Obsidian that u have with magnificent is a little upgrade from hasla weapon), many other will want a t5 (3 epherium) and don't think about who want a t6... I crafted 5 delphinad (2 scepters and 3 shields), I know well what I'm saying.
just one person who will try to make a t6 or a ayanad to burn all archeum in auction e push up their price very high

noyre
02-25-2015, 10:32 AM
in don't think the drop rate is as much of a problem as the labor it costs to open them is. On live, noble purses have a higher drop rate of archeum but only drops up to shards, jesters can drop up to crystals. Given that librarian purses drop up to essences, it could be reasoned that the drop rates may be a bit lower, but the labor it costs to open them makes them less of an attractive choice.

raise drop rate or lower labor cost its the same, cause in both with x labor u have more archeum than now, but if u lower labor cost u destroy the price of other item that u can find inside with decent % now, like fire/wave lunarite

futile
02-25-2015, 08:51 PM
You have to realize that the demand for archeum and the net return on useable weapons per archeum usage are very different things.

noyre
02-25-2015, 09:45 PM
You have to realize that the demand for archeum and the net return on useable weapons per archeum usage are very different things.

i know very well, and u must realoze that there r a new weapon after delphinad that some people try to craft... sorry for ask, but how many delphinad u crafted? that u know that i burned about 1000 sunlight crystal each (average count, counitng failed try too)

Saber
02-26-2015, 02:42 AM
Iv been waiting for the removing of CD on workers comp pots for a while now, Cause it would fix ALOT, Trion would make more money, and we could play more actively

Einar
02-26-2015, 03:10 AM
This game is designed toward sucking money from those "whales" instead of keeping the players base subscription. A few whales blowing hundred bucks a month vs. thousands of players x10 bucks a month. Well, I guess whales win.

Saber
02-26-2015, 04:18 AM
This game is designed toward sucking money from those "whales" instead of keeping the players base subscription. A few whales blowing hundred bucks a month vs. thousands of players x10 bucks a month. Well, I guess whales win.

Go cry in a corner, you wouldn't have a game to play if it was not for whales.

Jinsky
02-26-2015, 04:57 AM
A guy who stayed logged in 24/7 comes home and hits up the library. He spends somewhere between 30 to 120 minutes leveling and farming depending on his gear and player skill and he comes away with 160 purses and 3 green purses. He opens these purses and he's out of labor for the day unless he starts chugging labor pots. He can't farm or do trade runs. He can't fish. After an hour or two of leveling. An hour.

A hardcore player spends 4 hours a day grinding the library in his super amazing gear. He's getting 250 coin purses an hour and 5 green purses and he's rocking 90k larceny for labor cost reduction. This dude's chugging his labor pots on cooldown every 12 hours on his character and his 5 level 15 alts. This guy is getting 14880 labor per day and he's so awesome. He finishes smashing through his mobs and opens his coin purses. It cost him 14400 labor. He has 480 labor left. 480. He can't do anything else that uses labor, and this hardcore player has 6 more hours he wants to dump into AA.

Conclusion:

High labor costs in the library are going to leave people extremely labor restricted and gate people off of doing more library as well as doing other labor intensive content.

The Library locks players away in a PvE instance in a game marketed around its open world pvp. In addition, the open-world population has already been in decline on all servers.

You have great points and show a good understanding of the game. Though you mentioned this game is marketed around its open world pvp. So if someone farms purses for an hour and leaves the library to do pvp, is that not a good thing? There's more to do than farming purses in library, there's pvp and pirating that don't really take up labor. "Download ArcheAge and adventure for FREE in the ultimate sandbox MMO. Craft, claim, and conquer in the vast open world of Erenor, sail the seas for fame and fortune, and build an empire to rule the realm." This game is actually marketed as being the ultimate sandbox game, which allows you to do a multitude of things other than pve or farming purses. I'm sorry, I don't really want to spend all my time in game farming purses.

Your examples show 6.46s per labor and 5.89s per labor respectively. Though this does not account for higher level larceny proficiencies. At 12 labor per library purse, it comes out to 8.08s and 7.36s per labor. This all depends on market value and proficiency. And at 15 labor per purse, each giving roughly about 30-31s per purse, it comes out to 2s per labor and 2.5s per labor accounting for 12 labor before any drops or loots.

Let's look at other sources of income like trade runs for example. An average same continent trade run is roughly about 5-7s per labor depending on proficiency, location and cost of materials. You could easily consume more time doing trade runs to consume a days worth of labor as opposed to farming library purses depending on your gear and group or solo. You could also do cross continent trade runs and fishing, which would yield higher rewards and net profit but also with higher risks involved.

My conclusion, these are average profits with shorter time consumed which could allow you to do other things in game. This would also depend on market value of the drops, as you could also get gear and other items with more significant value which would equate to a higher net profit.


In the end these findings all point to one thing: labor is too expensive and limited. It's a problem on live and the PTS does nothing but magnify it. We need Alpha-level labor regen. We need it. It seems you won't give us that, though (why?), so we need this:

http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?35572-ArcheAge-Open-Beta-Marketplace-Changes&p=386979#post386979

* The Workman's Compensation labor potion now has a reduced cooldown (four hours) and reduced price.

It seemed like the devil back in its day but those half price labor potions would actually be extremely good for the game and good for this upcoming patch. (except without the absurdly low cooldown). Limited and expensive labor is a gate to content in this game. It's extremely limiting. It hurts farmers, it hurts traders, it hurts fishermen, it hurts the pirates who hunt these players, and it hurts guild interaction and guild warring between all of these activities. This isn't a phone game. People shouldn't play for an hour and feel like they have to stop. Please fix it.

My understanding of the introduction of labor into this game, was so it can help the balance between the productivity of normal or casual players and hardcore players. A normal or casual player can spend 2 hours of their time using up a days worth of labor into a decent profit, whereas a hardcore player could spend 12 hours of their time making a greater profit without there being a huge or substantial difference. Thus equaling out or balancing out their productivity in comparison to how much time they spend in game. Reducing the cooldown would cause greater differences between normal or casual players and hardcore players and players that can afford more, as well as normal or casual players and pay to win players and whales.


People shouldn't play for an hour and feel like they have to stop. Please fix it.

You're not limited to only farming purses, there are other things to do in game.

futile
02-26-2015, 06:19 AM
That's the point, though. All of your examples of income per labor are paltry when compared against the market value of additional labor. Obviously there are other things to do in the game that don't expend labor but I could fix what I said with that they are out of labor expending things to do in the game. But really, that's a ton of things. Regrading. Crafting. Farming. Trading. Fishing. Pirating. Even opening your dungeon lunarite. You need labor for most things in this game and it simply runs out too quickly right now. The library just makes this worse, and most people will be spending considerable time there due to leveling. That is the point being made here. Half price labor potions would be extremely helpful (we don't need or want the reduced cooldown).

Also labor being seen as a balance between hardcore and casual seems optimistic. The labor system is no different than stamina systems present in most f2p cash shop games. You gate the repeated playability of certain content with stamina and provide a way to refill via money. That's OK and becoming a standard. Just make it more affordable.

moowi
02-26-2015, 07:07 AM
Yeah I'm not looking forward to having an inventory full of coinpurses I don't have the labor to open because they only stack to 100. You can't store them anywhere but your inventory or your bank because they're bound.

Careby
02-26-2015, 07:37 AM
Very interesting analysis.


...People shouldn't play for an hour and feel like they have to stop. Please fix it.

I agree that perhaps the labor needed to open the library purse is excessive. But I'm also thinking that the purses do not have to be opened immediately, and how many players play intensively 7 days a week? Accumulate the labor to open the purses on your off days (logged on afk, of course, as seems to be the AA norm).

I always worry about unintended consequences. I would imagine changing labor regen to Alpha levels would have major effects throughout the economy, as would any significant change in labor pots. Perhaps distributing labor pots in divine gifts would have minimal repercussions, and would in any case be temporary and controllable. The slow pace of data gathering and tweaking is frustrating, but may not be as bad as an arbitrary change that causes irreversible damage.

Jinsky
02-26-2015, 07:49 AM
That's the point, though. All of your examples of income per labor are paltry when compared against the market value of additional labor. Obviously there are other things to do in the game that don't expend labor but I could fix what I said with that they are out of labor expending things to do in the game. But really, that's a ton of things. Regrading. Crafting. Farming. Trading. Fishing. Pirating. Even opening your dungeon lunarite. You need labor for most things in this game and it simply runs out too quickly right now. The library just makes this worse, and most people will be spending considerable time there due to leveling. That is the point being made here. Half price labor potions would be extremely helpful (we don't need or want the reduced cooldown).

Also labor being seen as a balance between hardcore and casual seems optimistic. The labor system is no different than stamina systems present in most f2p cash shop games. You gate the repeated playability of certain content with stamina and provide a way to refill via money. That's OK and becoming a standard. Just make it more affordable.

Here's a scenario that could be a result in lowering the cost of labor pots:
Farmers/Gatherers/Logging: More affordable labor would allow them to plant and harvest more, thus introducing more supply of raw goods which would lower the value it will sell for. Thus reducing the profit that can be made. Let's say current value of labor pots are 55g as you said before, and let's also say they are half price. Farmers would need to make a profit of 2.75s per labor in order to just even out. With an abundance of lowered value raw goods, the profit of farming would be even less than what it is right now on live. One example, logging, you plant a cedar which costs 16s for a sapling. It provides 8 logs for 10 labor. Let's be generous and give each log 4s per after increased supply. It results to 1.6s per labor as opposed to 2.75s per labor for a labor pot. Another example, ginseng, you plant a seed that costs 20s. It provides you with 3 ginseng for 3 labor. Let's again be generous and give ginseng 10s after an increased supply. That's 3.33s per labor, if you're planting single seeds. A measly profit of .58s per labor or 58g for 1k labor and over a day of growth time.

Trade runs/fishing: With more labor, means you can do more trade runs and fishing. Which both introduce more gold into the economy. With reduced raw goods and material costs, you gain a higher net profit. More currency into the economy equates to lower value of gold which also means inflation and prices will keep going up.

Purse farming: Again, more labor means you can open up more purses. Which would again introduce more gold into the economy, not only by players but also by bots. It would also introduce more archeum into the market, lowering archeum prices and thus enabling more crafters. Which would be a good thing, however, you still have inflation as well as enabling botters and gold sellers to attain more gold.

Labor is the limiting factor that dictates not only the amount of profit you can make, but also indirectly dictates how the market and economy will be. Labor pots are a marketplace item, which isn't suppose to be the norm. If you say that it's ok because it's becoming a standard, it enables pay to win players. If you want this game to be a better game, it shouldn't be just like others, it should be different.


I always worry about unintended consequences. I would imagine changing labor regen to Alpha levels would have major effects throughout the economy, as would any significant change in labor pots. Perhaps distributing labor pots in divine gifts would have minimal repercussions, and would in any case be temporary and controllable. The slow pace of data gathering and tweaking is frustrating, but may not be as bad as an arbitrary change that causes irreversible damage.

Without actually playing out a scenario, it's hard to say what can and will happen. Other than that, you would need to take a look from all angles. These prolonged divine gifts in my opinion did more harm than good. A combination of removing gold by gold sellers and bots as well as regrading caused the market to not only deflate, but it caused it to crash. Everything took a nose dive, devalued purse farming and higher graded gear. Most people had to rethink and restructure what to do to earn cash. Think of what happened with the rumbling archeum trees when they were first introduced. They brought down the value of TS Trees, archeum and even making illegal farming of pines not profitable. Now think of a bigger scale if you added labor pots to an event like divine gifts. I can only imagine what can happen and how many items would get affected.

futile
02-26-2015, 02:45 PM
You have to consider in your scenario about farming that increased traderuns and crafting would also increase the demand for farming goods. Farmland is also limited so there is a static amount that can be farmed. To be honest, throughout Archeage farming mats have stayed relatively stable in price compared to most other goods.

You're right about the fact that if the Archeage economy was modeled out, no matter what happens in the long run the economy will always inflate up until the point that trade runs and fishing and other static gold income activities are no longer worth doing. Like we see now. One bandage to that is to increase the gold sinks in the game, which it seems an abundance of regrading activity would do. Divine gifts do help with this regardless of other damage they did, and points will become more common in the library.

Regardless, inflation is a natural part of any economic system. It is healthy and expected but should be low. Archeage has been in a state of deflation for weeks now. Players have less incentive to invest, consume, spend their gold than ever before because their gold will be worth more tomorrow than it is worth today.