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jeffbenefiel
03-02-2015, 01:58 PM
So, Khrolan, lets frame the problem.

The other materials are ALL renewable and infinite, we all know the Archeum is the choke point. The average piece of armor to raise to Illustrious (let's say Plate) takes 6 Moonlight Crystals, 2 Shard, 1 Dust (this is the average, some are more some are less but taking a full set and divide by the 7 pieces). The best drop rate I've seen so far are the Rumbling Archeum Trees, at an average drop of 2.5 Crystals (personal experience of over 30 RA trees bears out the average of 1-4), the farmed Archeum Trees are an exercise in tedium given the labor and they only drop Dust. The Rumbling Trees can ONLY be acquired at a rate of 1/week (35 Loyalty). So, we have a pretty good base line for the amount of time it will take, about 2.4 weeks to craft one piece of Illustrious sinking all loyalty into Rumbling Trees (and for the sake of this argument, assume NONE go Thunderstruck). Given the RNG nature of the tier 6-9 we must also assume that to advance to the next tier will require Reforging, which in six months of crafting and data this has been the norm. In order to craft ONE piece Delphinad armor will require 45 Illustrious, which is 2 years at current rate, a full set would be 14 years. You want a realistic number? Bring that rate down to one month per piece. Remember, there are still dozens of other limiters such as labor, iron, silver, copper, polish, consumable mats, gilda dust, etc. So, you would need to up the Rumbling Tree drop rate by 24 times in order to achieve a one month to top tier. This will simultaneously rip the fangs out of coin purse bots as the Archeum entry point being a Loyalty based avenue.

New information that has come to light means my first assessment is kind compared to reality where every reforging from Magnificent on up just gives you more sealed gambling. With the release of even more powerful "Haslalike" weapons (The Library) crafting armor is now almost a joke and people will just grind the best dungeon armor gear. Unless they make Archeum free or near enough to it there's no reason to waste labor if all it gives you is another stupid RNG failure that can only be reforged into another RNG gambling failure.

jeffbenefiel
03-03-2015, 09:35 AM
Hey Khrolan, gonna give this one bump in case you didn't write it down in your "book of suggestions" the first time around.

Kalizar
03-03-2015, 09:43 AM
You can't really measure it that way. Your very first piece could craft all the way up to delphinad. Or you could play for 5 years doing the exact same thing and never once get epherium. Every shot at it is it's own separate chance.

jeffbenefiel
03-03-2015, 10:42 AM
You can't really measure it that way. Your very first piece could craft all the way up to delphinad. Or you could play for 5 years doing the exact same thing and never once get epherium. Every shot at it is it's own separate chance.

I think I explained pretty well how the math works, not to mention there is tons of data that supports my statement. There is a thing called Reforging in the Machining proficiency, look it up. Then get a poll of all the crafters out there and find out how many had to use Reforging to advance to the next tier. I'll save you the trouble, nearly all will be Reforging to get the next tier.. The math doesn't lie, the only way to guarantee advancement to next tier is Reforging.

Banelene
03-03-2015, 10:54 AM
i agree. bump

Psychasthenia
03-03-2015, 11:34 AM
other limiters such as labor, iron, silver, copper, polish, consumable mats, gilda dust, etc.
I wouldn't personally call those limiters. As you said already the Archeum is the choke point. Almost everything except for the labor is too abundant and cheap right now. Most of the metals comes from cross-continental players that care nothing about their labor use as long as it gradually builds them golds toward an APEX. Most of the gilda dust comes from bots grinding their early quest gilda and putting it on the AH before deleting themselves to do it again. The polish/oil/pigment is a sometimes profitable, sometimes labor sink for alchemists right now. The first tier often gives a net loss from raw materials and rarely spikes above 1s/lp. The second tier is where the solid profits are. Above that the sales are slow and prices can quickly plummit as the market is flooded in between buying sprees from those few crafters that don't have their own alchemist alt.

The labor is all about the player's individual ability to balance their use and save up a good 3000+ for a crafting spree followed by days of just maintaining their property and such until it builds back up. I personally have no problem balancing things so that I can craft a lot as long as I only focus on one proficiency per account. It is when players expect to be a jack-of-all-trades (without consuming labor potions) that it becomes impossible.

Blindmoon
03-03-2015, 11:45 AM
right on man

Evilsix
03-03-2015, 11:50 AM
This is assuming everyone is using those mats to craft, which they are not. People who don't craft armor and weapons sell their archeum creating an excess for the crafters so they don't have to try and farm it all themselves.

It means there won't be enough high quality crafted armor for everyone though, which is what we see now which is why top tier stuff is so coveted and pricey.

jeffbenefiel
03-03-2015, 12:01 PM
This is assuming everyone is using those mats to craft, which they are not. People who don't craft armor and weapons sell their archeum creating an excess for the crafters so they don't have to try and farm it all themselves.

It means there won't be enough high quality crafted armor for everyone though, which is what we see now which is why top tier stuff is so coveted and pricey.

Show me some other uses for Archeum other then crafting and I'll concede the argument point. Archeum, which has really only ONE use, should be cheaper then dirt. Oh, and the plus side is that with MORE crafting comes a greater demand for Resource trading, meaning more boats on the water, more PvP, happier Pirates, everybody wins. This shouldn't be stymied by the few Archeum speculators.

Evilsix
03-03-2015, 12:03 PM
Not that they are used for something else, it's that not everyone uses them period.

I make no weapons or armor. Thus all the archeum I produce is sold to those who do.

Ratigan
03-03-2015, 12:26 PM
The underlying goal of the AA economy is to drive players to the in-game marketplace as often as possible. That's not a cynical whine; it's the simple truth of XL's business model. When choke point resources for desired items are rare, those items end up pricing out of the reach of most average players who rely on free in-game methods of making gold (farming, mining etc.). In order for the average player to afford these artificially rarefied items, they'll have to buy and sell marketplace items or, more commonly, buy lots of RNG boxes and hope for a lottery win.

As players, it's obvious that archeum is far too rare. As a business, XL knows that making it more common will only decrease their income. In the end, they just need to strike a balance between maximizing profit and avoiding player pitchforks and torches.

Blindmoon
03-03-2015, 12:29 PM
The underlying goal of the AA economy is to drive players to the in-game marketplace as often as possible. That's not a cynical whine; it's the simple truth of XL's business model. When choke point resources for desired items are rare, those items end up pricing out of the reach of most average players who rely on free in-game methods of making gold (farming, mining etc.). In order for the average player to afford these artificially rarefied items, they'll have to buy and sell marketplace items or, more commonly, buy lots of RNG boxes and hope for a lottery win.

As players, it's obvious that archeum is far too rare. As a business, XL knows that making it more common will only decrease their income. In the end, they just need to strike a balance between maximizing profit and avoiding player pitchforks and torches.

too late on the pitchforks and torches

jumbaliah
03-03-2015, 12:30 PM
too late on the pitchforks and torches

not too late on the maximizing profit

jeffbenefiel
03-03-2015, 02:03 PM
The underlying goal of the AA economy is to drive players to the in-game marketplace as often as possible. That's not a cynical whine; it's the simple truth of XL's business model. When choke point resources for desired items are rare, those items end up pricing out of the reach of most average players who rely on free in-game methods of making gold (farming, mining etc.). In order for the average player to afford these artificially rarefied items, they'll have to by and sell marketplace items or, more commonly, buy lots of RNG boxes and hope for a lottery win.

As players, it's obvious that archeum is far too rare. As a business, XL knows that making it more common will only decrease their income. In the end, they just need to strike a balance between maximizing profit and avoiding player pitchforks and torches.

The Korean servers have Hasla level equipment for sale in their cash shop so they are special case. I would like to think Trion knows the horse has already left the barn on this and the longer they delay a 'decisive and bold' action the greater the player attrition.

feeder
03-03-2015, 02:44 PM
Hmm so let me get this straight... You want multiply by 24x the output of Rumbling Archeum Tree, thereby making ALL other means of getting archeum obsolete? In other words you think Archeum should only be available to a Patron, and even then only once per week? This is such a strange request, and by far the worst suggestion to date of how to increase or improve the archeum supply. Maybe it makes sense to the OP or maybe he is just trolling, but if this change was made I would stop playing this game altogether along with most everyone else. GG

jeffbenefiel
03-03-2015, 03:02 PM
Hmm so let me get this straight... You want multiply by 24x the output of Rumbling Archeum Tree, thereby making ALL other means of getting archeum obsolete? In other words you think Archeum should only be available to a Patron, and even then only once per week? This is such a strange request, and by far the worst suggestion to date of how to increase or improve the archeum supply. Maybe it makes sense to the OP or maybe he is just trolling, but if this change was made I would stop playing this game altogether along with most everyone else. GG

One, how much money does Trion make from non-patron players? Two, these mythical "other" methods of obtaining Archeum, please elaborate and provide data, numbers, the math. You say the request is strange, math isn't 'strange', it doesn't lie, it has no emotions, it doesn't troll. You say it is the "worst suggestion to date", compared to what? Unless you provide a competing theory for solving the Archeum shortage for crafting you are trolling.

Maya4
03-03-2015, 05:10 PM
One, how much money does Trion make from non-patron players? Two, these mythical "other" methods of obtaining Archeum, please elaborate and provide data, numbers, the math. You say the request is strange, math isn't 'strange', it doesn't lie, it has no emotions, it doesn't troll. You say it is the "worst suggestion to date", compared to what? Unless you provide a competing theory for solving the Archeum shortage for crafting you are trolling.

I am a free to play Patron. Buying every month with gold at least 4 Apex - so this is 40 USD. Sometimes it is 60 USD - others 80 USD.

The mythical other ways is to farm coin purses. The coin purse farming was totally destroyed from lazy players like you that complain there is a shortage of something. I used to make 700g per day with 3 hours of coin purse farm. Another 200 gold out of honor farm. Total play time - 5 hours of farming which includes PvP, Arena, Rifts too. I have been weapon crafting for 2 or 3 months now and I have 41k weaponry on my alt patron account which results in 2 Eupherium Clubs, which is good.

Your suggestion is super bad. You want high end game weapons gifted for just logging in to play. I am betting you are a pay to win player and are spending at least 100 USD per month on this game. The math is simple - farm at least 1200 purses per day, farm some honor and you will be fine.

jeffbenefiel
03-03-2015, 05:47 PM
I am a free to play Patron. Buying every month with gold at least 4 Apex - so this is 40 USD. Sometimes it is 60 USD - others 80 USD.

The mythical other ways is to farm coin purses. The coin purse farming was totally destroyed from lazy players like you that complain there is a shortage of something. I used to make 700g per day with 3 hours of coin purse farm. Another 200 gold out of honor farm. Total play time - 5 hours of farming which includes PvP, Arena, Rifts too. I have been weapon crafting for 2 or 3 months now and I have 41k weaponry on my alt patron account which results in 2 Eupherium Clubs, which is good.

Your suggestion is super bad. You want high end game weapons gifted for just logging in to play. I am betting you are a pay to win player and are spending at least 100 USD per month on this game. The math is simple - farm at least 1200 purses per day, farm some honor and you will be fine.

Ah, the specious coin purse theory. Do you have any data, other then your opinion? Additionally, the topic is about introducing Archeum at much higher rates which Khrolan admits are not anywhere close to where they need to be, not about how much gold you made. On the topic of non-patron benefit to Trion, the APEX were already purchased with real currency, the in game gold you paid didn't add one cent to Trions income statement. You're welcome ammend your statements with facts or evidence when you have such.

feeder
03-03-2015, 06:22 PM
Thanks Maya4 your answer to this strange guy was spot on. :)


....Unless you provide a competing theory for solving the Archeum shortage for crafting you are trolling.

I don't need to provide a competing theory, this forum is filled with 'archeum theories' already. Most of them are decent ideas, but they have some hidden negative side effect. In the end it doesn't matter how good the ideas are because we are playing a game with a preplanned update schedule, and the content will not be changed because people on the forums want it this way or that. So knowing that you can do little to change things, you should accept it and finds ways to succeed anyways.

As Maya4 says the coin purses... that sweet sweet Archeum is there for the taking guys. Sadly it seems most AA players don't want to farm it. They would rather complain about it under the guise of "the supply is inadequate" when really they mean "I want Archeum to be cheap".

Like Maya I farm coinpurses for archeum, I use some for crafting and I sell off the rest. This amount of Archeum and gold has been adequate for my personal crafting needs, and any additional archeum I may need I buy with the gold I made off selling previous archeum loots. Also, as an "Archeum Farmer" so to speak I actually have experience on the sellers end of it. I can tell you that it is NOT always easy to sell archeum, it is a competition to sell it in most cases, and sometimes the market is flooded because none of you crafters are actually crafting making it impossible to sell. So when my auction posts of under priced Archeum goes unsold two days in a row, and I check the forum and see solutions to the archeum supply, I can't help but laugh. I'm sure there are other purse farmers out there that can relate to that. haha

(imo) The reason the archeum supply may feel broken at times, is because there simply isn't enough new or low level players around. More new players means more cheap archeum for the high level folks. Trying to fix something that will fix itself in time is sort of silly, and impatient.

pizzaboy200
03-03-2015, 09:25 PM
I agree with the coin purse farmers.

jeffbenefiel
03-03-2015, 10:18 PM
Thanks Maya4 your answer to this strange guy was spot on. :) So, you devolve into ad hominem, your refutation goes further away from any kind of reasoned argument into the grave of high school temper tantrum.




I don't need to provide a competing theory, this forum is filled with 'archeum theories' already. Except mine is backed up by facts, not knee jerk emotional opinion masquerading as evidence
Most of them are decent ideas, but they have some hidden negative side effect. Oh heavens to bettsie, we might actually have to use our minds and make compromises, say it isn't so. The mere thought that the God-of-MMO's can't just wave his magic wand and create the absolute perfect solution that satisfies everyone sends me shivering towards the 'unsub' key
In the end it doesn't matter how good the ideas are because we are playing a game with a preplanned update schedule, and the content will not be changed because people on the forums want it this way or that. So knowing that you can do little to change things, you should accept it and finds ways to succeed anyways. Wow, you spiraled so far away from the topic I think we'll need a telescope to find your train of thought here. Once again, in case your Ritalin prescription has expired, the topic is about Khrolan's need for ideas to solve the severe Archeum shortage as stated in the last live stream.


As Maya4 says the coin purses... that sweet sweet Archeum is there for the taking guys.
How much, you are long on promises and short on proof
Sadly it seems most AA players don't want to farm it. (doing my best Claude Rains impression) I'm shocked, shocked to find players don't want to mindlessly grind thousands of coin purses a day, spend thousands of labor leveling nothing but Larceny only to receive the barest handful of Archeum.
They would rather complain about it under the guise of "the supply is inadequate" when really they mean "I want Archeum to be cheap". Again, because you seem to be slow on the uptake, the inadequate supply is directly-from-the-associate-producers-mouth-Khrolan.


Like Maya I farm coinpurses for archeum, I use some for crafting and I sell off the rest. Until numbers corroborated by repeatable experimentation appear you are spouting opinion, not fact. How much per purse, per labor point, per hour, per day, per week? Khrolan wanted good ideas, not biased opinions.
This amount of Archeum and gold has been adequate for my personal crafting needs, Again your myopic opinion rears its ugly head, how much Archeum?
and any additional archeum I may need I buy with the gold I made off selling previous archeum loots. The persistent lack of actual numbers, meaning you really haven't a clue, has gone from funny to sad. So you sell Archeum, taking a hit on the trade the first time from the AH, and then buy it back? About the only person who might believe that is Bernie Madoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff)
Also, as an "Archeum Farmer" so to speak I actually have experience on the sellers end of it. I can tell you that it is NOT always easy to sell archeum, it is a competition to sell it in most cases, and sometimes the market is flooded because none of you crafters are actually crafting making it impossible to sell. Or, we are out of Archeum, the price is beyond our means to procure considering how much we need in concert with the sealed RNG nature of items tier 6 and higher. Or, it's a big conspiracy to not buy Archeum from you (hands out the tin foil hats)
So when my auction posts of under priced Archeum goes unsold two days in a row, and I check the forum and see solutions to the archeum supply, I can't help but laugh. I'm sure there are other purse farmers out there that can relate to that. haha Oh, it couldn't be that darned deflationary spiral we're in because Trion has done such a bang on job of eliminating the gold injected from Gold Sellers. I know, I know, economics isn't being taught at your grade level. Here's the simple, when the amount of currency (gold in this case) in an economy is reduced, the prices of all goods and services falls until equilibrium is reached between buyer and seller. Even simpler, take money out of the economy and prices plummet.


(imo) The reason the archeum supply may feel broken at times, is because there simply isn't enough new or low level players around. More new players means more cheap archeum for the high level folks. Trying to fix something that will fix itself in time is sort of silly, and impatient. There isn't a single shred of logic in that statement. The more I read your post the more I come to the conclusion you only read half of the OP and comprehended even less. Coin purse botting...er...farming is not a viable alternative. You have not once presented anything close to an alternative to Rumbling Archeum Trees. If Archeum was not in short supply it would only be a rare handful of people talking about, and certainly not the freakin' Associate Producer on a live stream week after sodding week.

feeder
03-03-2015, 10:35 PM
I won't be responding to that wall of text.

If you want Archeum, kill some mobs and open the coin purses they drop. Enjoy!

junweizhu
03-04-2015, 01:47 AM
Wait, did you just suggest to bring down the crafting time of delphinad to one month per piece? Is that one month per piece per whole server or per player? I think you already knows what happens when it's one delphinad per month per player, considering the fact there are still a lot of people who are crafting gear and there's not a huge influx of new players. One delphinad per month per server is already happening I think.

I can get 1 archeum crystal per 50-100 coinpurses so for hardly any time of farming I can gather enough crystals to craft an illustrious in a week or maybe less depending on if I'm even luckier and/or decided to farm more. Although it's not ideal, coinpurses still give a better rate of 'free' archeum. Also, instead of planting rumbling trees have you considered selling other loyalty token items and buy archeum with that money instead? Or if you do plant it and get thunderstruck, sell the tree and buy archeum with it? I mean ~350g is quite a lot of money you can invest in archeum. About 25 crystals right? Or is TS tree even cheaper? I don't know.

What I'm trying to say is, if you don't like one activity of the game, be a part of the community and grow and craft things you do like and sell the items so you can buy the materials you don't like to gather. That's how you keep the world going round and round and round.
Archeum is expensive, but these people are dedicating themselves in getting the crystals so you don't have to, so at least buy their things and give them their paycheck for all the work.

MortucusInvictus
03-04-2015, 05:15 AM
Again 1.7 fixes archem drops from trees to 7 to 15 crystals per harvest
now move along
on a side note farm purses ffs and stop being lazy

UnhappyCustomer
03-04-2015, 05:18 AM
Useless maths, if we get too much archeum, there will be a lack of mysterious garden powder.
But i assume, that you assume, you're getting those handed by Trion aswell?

felixius
03-04-2015, 07:18 AM
So, OP is offering a solution to a problem you all recognize, and you shoot it down and tell him to go farm coinpurses, without any creative thought or data to back it up. You people are awesome.

Wolfguarde
03-04-2015, 07:56 AM
Farm at least 1200 purses per day, farm some honor and you will be fine.

Farm 1200 purses a day and you will likely have time for very, very little else if you have any kind of life outside the game.

At a rate of roughly 110 per hour as a melee, that's more than ten hours of grinding per day. Assuming it jumps to around 160-200 per hour as a caster, that's at least five hours of grinding a day. That kind of grind is a surefire way to burn yourself out and quit the game unless you're one of the 1% that can stand an extended grind for nearly no reward.


So, OP is offering a solution to a problem you all recognize, and you shoot it down and tell him to go farm coinpurses, without any creative thought or data to back it up. You people are awesome.

To be fair, his solution focuses on an element of the game that isn't available to free-to-play players, and basically equates to a handout. While it is one solution to the problem, I don't see it as an ideal one. Archeum needs a natural, renewable, freely available influx point. That influx point should be normal archeum trees, and I believe they are being fixed come next patch. Hopefully the issue will become a thing of the past come March 10th.

jeffbenefiel
03-04-2015, 09:42 AM
Farm 1200 purses a day and you will likely have time for very, very little else if you have any kind of life outside the game.

At a rate of roughly 110 per hour as a melee, that's more than ten hours of grinding per day. Assuming it jumps to around 160-200 per hour as a caster, that's at least five hours of grinding a day. That kind of grind is a surefire way to burn yourself out and quit the game unless you're one of the 1% that can stand an extended grind for nearly no reward.
Not to mention Wolf, it's mathematically impossible at 5 labor/purse to open and the current level of labor regeneration.




To be fair, his solution focuses on an element of the game that isn't available to free-to-play players, And I'll bring back the point, crafting isn't a f2p endeavor, it never was considering the huge labor and land requirements. Now who is asking for handouts to coddle the players who put no financial skin in the game to keep the producers from the unemployment line?
and basically equates to a handout. If Archeum is worth zero how exactly would that effect the game? Try and work it out before formulating an answer. It would change absolutely nothing because Archeum is only used in crafting. The RNG is still in place, it would take months to raise a few pieces of armor to top tier with no guarantee they'd even be in the same set bonus let alone above Rare. The other rare drops in purses are still there so their prices are not effected at all. The Boss drops are still rare, those prices are not effected at all. What gets effected is the swipe warriors will not longer be king of the roost
While it is one solution to the problem, I don't see it as an ideal one. Archeum needs a natural, renewable, freely available influx point. That influx point should be normal archeum trees, First you said it should be available to f2p and then say the trees that need to be planted on 'patron only land', sounds like an oxymoron to me, illuminate me on how archeum trees can be planted in the wild, I was under the impression that was a supremely bad idea, but I'll keep an open mind
and I believe they are being fixed come next patch. Hopefully the issue will become a thing of the past come March 10th.

Last I read the only thing changing with the patch with the Archeum trees is the amount of spring water they need (from 4 down to 1), not the drop rate or the drop (which is dust). Again, if you have notes/links to where Khrolan/Scapes said different I'm up to another round of math.

junweizhu
03-04-2015, 10:47 AM
Not to mention Wolf, it's mathematically impossible at 5 labor/purse to open and the current level of labor regeneration.



And I'll bring back the point, crafting isn't a f2p endeavor, it never was considering the huge labor and land requirements. Now who is asking for handouts to coddle the players who put no financial skin in the game to keep the producers from the unemployment line? If Archeum is worth zero how exactly would that effect the game? Try and work it out before formulating an answer. It would change absolutely nothing because Archeum is only used in crafting. The RNG is still in place, it would take months to raise a few pieces of armor to top tier with no guarantee they'd even be in the same set bonus let alone above Rare. The other rare drops in purses are still there so their prices are not effected at all. The Boss drops are still rare, those prices are not effected at all. What gets effected is the swipe warriors will not longer be king of the roost First you said it should be available to f2p and then say the trees that need to be planted on 'patron only land', sounds like an oxymoron to me, illuminate me on how archeum trees can be planted in the wild, I was under the impression that was a supremely bad idea, but I'll keep an open mind

Last I read the only thing changing with the patch with the Archeum trees is the amount of spring water they need (from 4 down to 1), not the drop rate or the drop (which is dust). Again, if you have notes/links to where Khrolan/Scapes said different I'm up to another round of math.

If flooding the archeum supply until it's worth nothing has no effect in the game, then not changing the archeum supply have the same effect as flooding it isn't it? Atleast that's what I get from your post. Rng or not, there will be far more crafting taking place with cheaper archeum and you want rng to go more in favour to the players do as to make that delph piece per month goal come true. It's going to have a huge effect to the game. Whether it's good or bad is up to debate. People who wants the best gear will get it rather quickly either by crafting himself or dedicating himself to fishing until enough money to buy them. After getting full ayanad set they'll be satisfied and quit the game until the next gear comes in, which is going to be never or in a few years.

jeffbenefiel
03-04-2015, 10:55 AM
If flooding the archeum supply until it's worth nothing has no effect in the game, then not changing the archeum supply have the same effect as flooding it isn't it? Atleast that's what I get from your post.

No, because as I pointed out in the OP, the current rate to a single piece of top tier armor is 2 years, that is leaving the Archeum supply at current level. Flooding the supply only increases that rate at which people can craft to top tier, it effects nothing else...except bots who sell Archeum from coin purses. Soooo, if you're a botting player flooding the market with Archeum rains on your Russian bot program hack parade. Yeah, bots really love it currently.

Sharon
03-04-2015, 11:20 AM
The math doesn't lie, the only way to guarantee advancement to next tier is Reforging.

Reforging doesn't guarantee anything. When you reforge, you simply are trading in for another sealed item, which might also be a dead end, leaving you in a worse position.

Nextactus
03-04-2015, 11:36 AM
No, because as I pointed out in the OP, the current rate to a single piece of top tier armor is 2 years, that is leaving the Archeum supply at current level. Flooding the supply only increases that rate at which people can craft to top tier, it effects nothing else...except bots who sell Archeum from coin purses. Soooo, if you're a botting player flooding the market with Archeum rains on your Russian bot program hack parade. Yeah, bots really love it currently.

Ok the flaw in your math is that you are using one single supply of archeum, the rumbling trees. Math is useless unless you have all data included in the equation. the game isnt even a year old and there are people with full sets/ near full sets of delph gear. Yes they are most likely the cc warriors that sold cash shop to get the gold to pay the high price for them but that doesn't matter for the sake of this argument. Two years for a single piece, sounds very bad till you realize your talking about a single archeum source. you can not come up with a statistic like that without having all forms of archeum intake included. All your doing is making a fail attempt at getting the method you seem to use, the rumbling trees boosted.

You can not "fix" the archeum drops without adjusting them across the board. You have to make adjustments to every way archeum is created in game. No single thing can be changed bc then you are basically forcing everyone that uses it to use that one single method and the rest fall by the wayside. Personally the only way you could change 1 source and leave the rest alone is to change the drop rates from purses againl. Because that A. is doable by everyone both p2p and f2p, gives the f2p a way to make some money and gets the p2p crafters a influx of archeum, B. requires actual game play to do. With the trees it's just log in for loyalty and plant a tree or log in water my trees and collect and call it day. Purses must be farmed and labor spent to open them.

Basically im saying you can not use one method of gaining archeum and forgetting the rest as a basis of argument for increasing supply. All it does is skew the math, like your 2 years to make one delph statement does. If that was at all true then there would be almost no delph in game yet, which we know isn't true. Is there an abundance of it, of course not. There should honestly not be one for a very long time. Our server are only what 6 months old, there shouldn't be enough to gear everyone on the server yet. Does it need tweaked? We all know the answer to that is yes, does it need to be tweaked in just one way, imo thats a huge no.

felixius
03-04-2015, 11:37 AM
Not to mention Wolf, it's mathematically impossible at 5 labor/purse to open and the current level of labor regeneration.



And I'll bring back the point, crafting isn't a f2p endeavor, it never was considering the huge labor and land requirements. Now who is asking for handouts to coddle the players who put no financial skin in the game to keep the producers from the unemployment line? If Archeum is worth zero how exactly would that effect the game? Try and work it out before formulating an answer. It would change absolutely nothing because Archeum is only used in crafting. The RNG is still in place, it would take months to raise a few pieces of armor to top tier with no guarantee they'd even be in the same set bonus let alone above Rare. The other rare drops in purses are still there so their prices are not effected at all. The Boss drops are still rare, those prices are not effected at all. What gets effected is the swipe warriors will not longer be king of the roost First you said it should be available to f2p and then say the trees that need to be planted on 'patron only land', sounds like an oxymoron to me, illuminate me on how archeum trees can be planted in the wild, I was under the impression that was a supremely bad idea, but I'll keep an open mind

Last I read the only thing changing with the patch with the Archeum trees is the amount of spring water they need (from 4 down to 1), not the drop rate or the drop (which is dust). Again, if you have notes/links to where Khrolan/Scapes said different I'm up to another round of math.

As you point out here, removing archeum as a bottleneck would not remove all barriers in gear crafting.

As an example, just to make an illustrious weapon, you need 1400 labor (no proficiency discounts included), which is almost exactly a full day's worth of offline labor regen for patrons. If you actually stayed on 24/7, you'd have enough labor to make 2 illustrious weapons, and do nothing else for the entire day. So let's say you did just that, craft nothing but illustrious weapons, twice a day, for 30 days. You'd have 60 illustrious weapons at the end of that 30 day period (I'm not even going to include that you'd have no surplus labor to make money or get the other mats with, which is obviously unsustainable). Now based on expected yields, and assuming upgradeable crafting chances for magnificent, epherium, and delphinad are 1/4, 1/7, and 1/7 exactly, respectively, then you can expect those 60 illustrious to turn into 30 upgradeable illustrious items (15 proc upgradeable, and salvage 45 into 15 upgradeable = 30). So, now you have 30 magnificent weapons, of which you can expect 4-5 upgradeable mag weapons. Now you have 4-5 epherium weapons, and there are 7 different possible rolls, so you still have no real expection of getting a delphinad. Add to this that the salvages of the illustrious weapons and the upgrades of illust/mag/epher tiers will take almost another full month's worth of labor, you will spend 2 months of labor trying to get a delphinad, and it's very possible you will not succeed in getting one even then.

Labor on its own is already a great limiter in crafting gear. In conjunction with removing/nullifying archeum costs altogether, I have an accompanying suggestion: drastically increase the number of stabilizers needed to craft at every stage of crafting; this would still keep it very pricey to do, along with eating into your potential crafting labor.

Maya4
03-04-2015, 12:30 PM
Farm 1200 purses a day and you will likely have time for very, very little else if you have any kind of life outside the game.

At a rate of roughly 110 per hour as a melee, that's more than ten hours of grinding per day. Assuming it jumps to around 160-200 per hour as a caster, that's at least five hours of grinding a day. That kind of grind is a surefire way to burn yourself out and quit the game unless you're one of the 1% that can stand an extended grind for nearly no reward.

.
You suck at the game. Period. Or excuse - you are god damn lazy.

Let me help you. I am a healer. I play as arcanist to farm purses when I can hassle the skyfin hassle. My gear is super bad for arcanist - gha and t2 hasla. Yet I am able to do 300 purses per hour very easy. Good build and rhythm is all you need. I do not use buffs.

When I am not up for the skyfin hussle. I change to battle rage - auramancy - defense and I either AoE 8 mobs at Yetis or AoE 4 mobs in Auroria. I have turbo bad gear as a melee - t1 hasla sword and some random very cheap (under 5 gold per piece) plate armor. I use defence 1 pot, unstopable force, brick wall and lvl6 str buff. I use hasla t3 shield isntead of serpentis shield for this.

Let me help you further more. Stop being bad at the game. Youtube - aoe farm yetis... there will be a short clip on Spanish with English subtitles explaining you how to abuse 2 battle rage skills to make your tigger strike and the other 2 aoe skills proc on every block. Most people buy now should have an auroria back. If you do not... just waste 300 gold for Perfect Earth Lunafrost and put it on your cape. You are ready to go and make at least 200 purses per hour on easy mobs at rock born. Stick to the content you have gear for. Rockborn mobs are still the best mobs, but if you have very good gear you can try Auroria.

Ok enough free lessons for today.

jeffbenefiel
03-04-2015, 01:11 PM
Reforging doesn't guarantee anything. When you reforge, you simply are trading in for another sealed item, which might also be a dead end, leaving you in a worse position.

You're wrong, I've already Reforged to Magnificent twice. You get, with Reforging, a Quake piece guaranteed to let you advance to the next tier.

Maya4
03-04-2015, 01:32 PM
Not to mention Wolf, it's mathematically impossible at 5 labor/purse to open and the current level of labor regeneration.



It is 4 labor per purse - another lazy person. You dont have 40k larceny. You are incompetent at the topic. Period. Perhaps even bad at the game.
1200 purses is 5k labor. The math behind. You regen 2400 labor. Buy 2 pots. 4400 labor. 1200 purses is the daily goal, but it doesnt mean you have to make it. 1200 purses leaves you some breathing space for the next day. In case you have not that much time to farm. What I usually do is dedicate 2 days to farm - 8 to 12 hours. Make about 5-7k purses in these 2 days and I am good to go.

Now get good.

junweizhu
03-04-2015, 01:34 PM
No, because as I pointed out in the OP, the current rate to a single piece of top tier armor is 2 years, that is leaving the Archeum supply at current level. Flooding the supply only increases that rate at which people can craft to top tier, it effects nothing else...except bots who sell Archeum from coin purses. Soooo, if you're a botting player flooding the market with Archeum rains on your Russian bot program hack parade. Yeah, bots really love it currently.

That's only if you go with rumbling archeum trees only. I'm not going to wait a whole week to get the amount of crystals I can get from farming coinpurses for 2-3 hours, or do other things that will get me the gold to buy archeum crystals that takes me far less time like fish a few marlins equals to a few archeum crystals, turn in a few tradepacks to get some crystals. Or do some other crafts. All of them are far better choices than just rumbling archeum trees, they merely supplement the game, not be a completely reliable source of archeum. I suggest you stop trying to be so self sufficient in the game, unless you don't mind crafting one delph per 2 years.

Moose Wayne
03-04-2015, 01:54 PM
This guy is either really dense or just trolling. Increase archeum drops from rumbling by 24 times? I've gotten between 1-5 crystals. Now you're suggesting it be 24-120? You call an ad hominem out on the 3rd page but not even 5 lines later you whip out your own ad hominem. You're also refusing to accept that coinpurses are a major supply of archeum. There have been dozens of topics of people opening thousands of purses to try and find a droprate. And from my own experience in game, farming a couple hundred purses a day will get you way more archeum than rumbling saplings easily. The last thing this game needs is more reasons for players to show up for mere minutes and then log off. Why bother farming purses when you can just log in each day for a week and get enough archeum from a tree that you can craft endgame gear?

Wolfguarde
03-04-2015, 08:52 PM
Not to mention Wolf, it's mathematically impossible at 5 labor/purse to open and the current level of labor regeneration.


Yeah, I was wondering at the math of that. It would be viable if you're switching between two patron accounts to do your farming, I suppose.



And I'll bring back the point, crafting isn't a f2p endeavor, it never was considering the huge labor and land requirements. Now who is asking for handouts to coddle the players who put no financial skin in the game to keep the producers from the unemployment line? If Archeum is worth zero how exactly would that effect the game? Try and work it out before formulating an answer. It would change absolutely nothing because Archeum is only used in crafting.


Free-to-play players shouldn't be fully excluded from elements of the game experience simply because they aren't paying for the game. Granted, the game's modelled around a pay-to-play model, and I don't see anything wrong with that. But limiting access to content is not the same as being completely excluded from it.

Going from my very small bank of market knowledge/experience: if archeum had no market value, prices for the other ingredients would tank as the market is flooded with newly created weapons, armour, and accessories. The deflation would result in endgame gear becoming a lot less uncommon, and a large excess of weapon and armour crafters once the market becomes oversaturated. Basically the inverse of the problem we currently have; gear crafters would still be unable to sell for the most part, only it would be because nobody is buying their products. Regrade materials would likely inflate to stupid prices again as the players with celestial gear start to realise that they don't have an edge anymore, and try to further improve their gear to reattain their superiority. If the lack of regrade material influx isn't fixed, that'll become the new chew toy for the players complaining about the archeum market at the moment.

Granted, that's a prediction looking at the far extreme of what is possible, but given the abundance of RMT filth in this game I would not be surprised at all to see it happen.



First you said it should be available to f2p and then say the trees that need to be planted on 'patron only land', sounds like an oxymoron to me, illuminate me on how archeum trees can be planted in the wild, I was under the impression that was a supremely bad idea, but I'll keep an open mind


If archeum trees can only be planted on farms, then that's the first I've heard of it and happily stand corrected. Understand that I'm not attacking you here. I'm simply contributing to the discussion.

I raised archeum trees in my argument because they were meant to be the fix for this issue when they were released. For obvious reasons, they weren't. There has been talk of the harvest tables being improved, which is what I was referring to. If that's untrue, then again, I stand corrected. I haven't been following the patch notes/PTS forums, but rather getting information from my guild ingame and other posts on the live server forums.

jeffbenefiel
03-04-2015, 10:32 PM
Yeah, I was wondering at the math of that. It would be viable if you're switching between two patron accounts to do your farming, I suppose.



Free-to-play players shouldn't be fully excluded from elements of the game experience simply because they aren't paying for the game. Granted, the game's modelled around a pay-to-play model, and I don't see anything wrong with that. But limiting access to content is not the same as being completely excluded from it.
There's limiting access and where to limit it, it's subjective, but when one of Trions freakin investors is the cosa nostra of Wallstreet (namely Comcast) just feel lucky they don't send Blackwater Security around to waterboard you into handing over your credit card. I just see it differently, f2p is like a one week trial offer but even more limited. There's absolutely no business reason to give f2p players anything more than a quick kick to the curb, this is a business, not a charity. I might be a little sympathetic if they didn't whine like a room full of eight year olds every time a 'patron only' suggestion comes up that might extend the life of the game financially.


Going from my very small bank of market knowledge/experience: if archeum had no market value, prices for the other ingredients would tank I don't think so. As production of armor/weapons/handicraft increases it puts excessive pressure on a limited resource market and prices for charcoal/rock salt/crystal stabilizer will spike in the short term. This will put ships back on the water where they belong, this can only be a good thing. The reason all the polish/oil resource prices have tanked (as they have on my server) is because the crafters have run out of Archeum, who needs polish when you have nothing to do with it. Combine this with the surgical removal of Gold Seller liquid funds and you have the makings of a depression, welcome to the 1930's Arccheage style.
as the market is flooded with newly created weapons, armour, and accessories. The deflation would result in endgame gear becoming a lot less uncommon, and a large excess of weapon and armour crafters once the market becomes oversaturated. Granted, but leveling the playing field doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. The people who are ♥♥♥♥♥ing about it are the rich kids or bot players who like to be able to buy skill by having a monopoly on gear. Those with paper thin egos can't stand the idea of a battle where it's a coin toss and when the quality of gear is evened out among ALL the patron players and approaching their gear level they'll scream like stuck pigs. In addition, tougher and tougher content is being introduced which means only a handful of people get to play, and that amongst paying customers. Playing favorites with paying customers never ends well in a business.
Basically the inverse of the problem we currently have; gear crafters would still be unable to sell for the most part, only it would be because nobody is buying their products. Then it's back to having a guild armorer, guild weapons maker, etc, etc. I don't think it should be an alternative to running trade packs. This game forces you to interact socially, that means guild affiliations for gear. Again, the loudest screams come from the speculators who see their monopoly coming to an abrupt end.
Regrade materials would likely inflate to stupid prices again as the players with celestial gear start to realise that they don't have an edge anymore, and try to further improve their gear to reattain their superiority. To me, regrade is a fools paradise, it's feeding a gambling addiction. Let them spin the wheel of fortune and waste their money, hell I'll sell them the regrade scrolls at reasonable prices because I won't likely be using them beyond Heroic. I just don't see regrade as anywhere near the problem as the Archeum shortage.
If the lack of regrade material influx isn't fixed, that'll become the new chew toy for the players complaining about the archeum market at the moment. One problem at a time. IF that becomes a problem then the community will bark and bark loud, and the producers will address the problem at that time.


Granted, that's a prediction looking at the far extreme of what is possible, but given the abundance of RMT filth in this game I would not be surprised at all to see it happen. Refresh me on the abbreviation "RMT", are we talking stuff like the Divine Gift boxes?




If archeum trees can only be planted on farms, then that's the first I've heard of it and happily stand corrected. Understand that I'm not attacking you here. I'm simply contributing to the discussion. How expensive are Archeum Trees? How much labor/resources does it take to bring them to harvest? And you're going to risk that on an unprotected wild planting? Dude, there's risk/reward evaluations and then there's reckless. No offense, just saying. If the non patrons want to try, let them, but there better not be any ♥♥♥♥♥ing when they come back they're all cut down.


I raised archeum trees in my argument because they were meant to be the fix for this issue when they were released. For obvious reasons, they weren't. There has been talk of the harvest tables being improved, which is what I was referring to. If that's untrue, then again, I stand corrected. I haven't been following the patch notes/PTS forums, but rather getting information from my guild ingame and other posts on the live server forums.
Perhaps you're better informed then I am, but the last I heard from Trion it was they would lower the spring water needed to once a day, but it was still only going to give Dust. If anyone has a link to where Trion says otherwise, please post it. With numbers like that, Rumbling Trees are still king of the roost, which is why they took them out of the Racing Chest and made them Loyalty only.

Minase
03-05-2015, 12:26 AM
You guys know that nothings gonna change right? This thread is setup for the sake of a discussion and not solution. XLGAMES is the master....

Maya4
03-05-2015, 07:05 AM
Yeah, I was wondering at the math of that. It would be viable if you're switching between two patron accounts to do your farming, I suppose.



Free-to-play players shouldn't be fully excluded from elements of the game experience simply because they aren't paying for the game. Granted, the game's modelled around a pay-to-play model, and I don't see anything wrong with that. But limiting access to content is not the same as being completely excluded from it.

Going from my very small bank of market knowledge/experience: if archeum had no market value, prices for the other ingredients would tank as the market is flooded with newly created weapons, armour, and accessories. The deflation would result in endgame gear becoming a lot less uncommon, and a large excess of weapon and armour crafters once the market becomes oversaturated. Basically the inverse of the problem we currently have; gear crafters would still be unable to sell for the most part, only it would be because nobody is buying their products. Regrade materials would likely inflate to stupid prices again as the players with celestial gear start to realise that they don't have an edge anymore, and try to further improve their gear to reattain their superiority. If the lack of regrade material influx isn't fixed, that'll become the new chew toy for the players complaining about the archeum market at the moment.

Granted, that's a prediction looking at the far extreme of what is possible, but given the abundance of RMT filth in this game I would not be surprised at all to see it happen.



If archeum trees can only be planted on farms, then that's the first I've heard of it and happily stand corrected. Understand that I'm not attacking you here. I'm simply contributing to the discussion.

I raised archeum trees in my argument because they were meant to be the fix for this issue when they were released. For obvious reasons, they weren't. There has been talk of the harvest tables being improved, which is what I was referring to. If that's untrue, then again, I stand corrected. I haven't been following the patch notes/PTS forums, but rather getting information from my guild ingame and other posts on the live server forums.

Labor pots. Nothing to do the math for. 2 labor pots per day with 1200 purses is very doable and actually if I could drink more than that I would go over 1200.

You are forgetting something important. If end game gear is accessible then something else that gives advantage will get very expensive - buffs, books and pots and food comes to mind. You solution will limit one part of the game - coin purse farming ( a lot of people enjoy it) and will directly buff other aspect of the game - alchemy, cooking, printing. Therefor it is not a solution.

I have told you the solution - farm coin purses as it is the best gold per labor in game and craft with a group of people. For example I play with 2 real life friends and all of us need cloth armor so we are all farming purses and crafting the armors as we need 3 different cloth pieces. Works fine for us. As we are 3 there is no limit where we can farm purses we can access all the content.

Aeducan76
03-05-2015, 07:21 AM
You want some math - change the thread:

Regrading 80 Cel Bows (http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?168974-regrading-of-80-celestial-bows!)

Wolfguarde
03-05-2015, 09:00 AM
I just see it differently, f2p is like a one week trial offer but even more limited. There's absolutely no business reason to give f2p players anything more than a quick kick to the curb, this is a business, not a charity.


True, but there's only so far you can offend a certain player bracket before they'll just turn their backs and walk away. In a P2P model that caters to F2P players, developers have to tread a very fine line. They want to incite people to play the game, then to start paying for it when they realise how limited they are - but they don't want to make it so restrictive that players will simply drop the game for something more to their liking. To use your term, a little charity goes a very long way in a harsh business setting.



I might be a little sympathetic if they didn't whine like a room full of eight year olds every time a 'patron only' suggestion comes up that might extend the life of the game financially.


I see a lot of this, but frankly, I see a lot of people complaining about pretty much everything in the game. I've been on both sides of the P/F2P argument, patiently explaining things to people who are unreasonably pissed off at one group or the other. Nobody ever seems to think they're in the wrong, even when it's explained to them that they are, so I gave up.



I don't think so. As production of armor/weapons/handicraft increases it puts excessive pressure on a limited resource market and prices for charcoal/rock salt/crystal stabilizer will spike in the short term. This will put ships back on the water where they belong, this can only be a good thing. The reason all the polish/oil resource prices have tanked (as they have on my server) is because the crafters have run out of Archeum, who needs polish when you have nothing to do with it.


To be honest, I completely forgot about stabilisers as a crafting component. You're on the mark there; that market will definitely become a lot larger, which will in turn breathe a lot of life into some of the more vital parts of the game.

However, in the extended long term, I can still see my initial issue becoming a problem if archeum is too common - which it would be with a significantly increased archeum drop rate from rumbling trees. I stand by my statement that normal archeum trees are a more solid solution - and more in line with the game's crafting/gathering/farming system, where almost anything and everything of value that isn't available through the cash/loyalty shop requires a labour investment to obtain.

The removal of gold sellers I can only ever see as a good thing. The problem I foresee on that front is Trion simply letting the momentum they've generated die, rather than continuing to snipe them and cut them out of the game. Unless their development pattern changes a lot, this recent purge will prove to be a one-off or one of several very infrequent purges that simply deal with the problem as it reaches crisis levels, rather than preventing it from being anything more than a minor nuisance.

To answer your later question, RMT is the shorthand for real money traders, and basically refers to the gold buying/selling black market in MMO games. As a lot of RMTers on both the giving and receiving ends also tend to use bots and/or scripts in their game time, I tend to lump RMTers and scripters together when I talk about them.



Granted, but leveling the playing field doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. The people who are ♥♥♥♥♥ing about it are the rich kids or bot players who like to be able to buy skill by having a monopoly on gear. Those with paper thin egos can't stand the idea of a battle where it's a coin toss and when the quality of gear is evened out among ALL the patron players and approaching their gear level they'll scream like stuck pigs.


Not disagreeing with you - gear superiority is an ego trip and a lot of people engage with it. However, the gear system for a lot of MMOs actually relies on that. You'll find a lot of players leaving games like Guild Wars 2 in its early stages, where the gear balance literally abolished the gear hierarchy at endgame, simply because they don't feel a pull to play a game where the acquisition of gear doesn't lend them some kind of superiority. It's petty, and it's terrible, but unfortunately MMOs haven't progressed beyond the archaic age of game development yet in a lot of respects, and this is one of the major hooks that a lot of developers, XL included, tend to use to keep people playing.



In addition, tougher and tougher content is being introduced which means only a handful of people get to play, and that amongst paying customers. Playing favorites with paying customers never ends well in a business.


Also true, and I completely agree with you here. Kind of annoying to not be able to attend raid content at all because people want players with gear that costs 10k+ gold to acquire. I have better ♥♥♥♥ to spend my gold on that is actually reasonably priced.



Then it's back to having a guild armorer, guild weapons maker, etc, etc. I don't think it should be an alternative to running trade packs. This game forces you to interact socially, that means guild affiliations for gear. Again, the loudest screams come from the speculators who see their monopoly coming to an abrupt end.


I don't disagree, and any guild of decent size should develop an internal crafting economy without really needing to set out to do it deliberately. But the issue I was referring to was more the fact that eventually, if supply is too high for too long, then it's going to wind up exceeding demand. Good for the people who need gear... not so good for the people making it as their sole means of acquiring gold.

As for gold trade packs... they're back to being viable at the moment - just - but as the economy inflates, they're inevitably going to become useless again. Unless Trion can pressure XL into implementing some kind of scaling gold yield as the economy on each server cluster grows, they just eventually become redundant. I stopped making trade packs when labour hit 5s/unit, and haven't returned to it since (that's where the labour price is sitting after deflation now as well). I make more gold simply making health and mana potions via alchemy, and selling my materials when they spike above a certain price.



To me, regrade is a fools paradise, it's feeding a gambling addiction. Let them spin the wheel of fortune and waste their money, hell I'll sell them the regrade scrolls at reasonable prices because I won't likely be using them beyond Heroic. I just don't see regrade as anywhere near the problem as the Archeum shortage. One problem at a time. IF that becomes a problem then the community will bark and bark loud, and the producers will address the problem at that time.


I agree, and a smart player isn't going to waste their gold on regrading beyond a certain point unless they have literally nothing left to spend their gold on except for the RNG regrade trap. But it's what people will wind up complaining about once gear is no longer a high value commodity. I was simply laying out where I expected the seagull flock to start making noise next.



How expensive are Archeum Trees? How much labor/resources does it take to bring them to harvest? And you're going to risk that on an unprotected wild planting? Dude, there's risk/reward evaluations and then there's reckless. No offense, just saying. If the non patrons want to try, let them, but there better not be any ♥♥♥♥♥ing when they come back they're all cut down.


I read the figures a while back, but I honestly can't remember anything about them other than that the labour cost was stupidly high. But while I agree that they're likely to be cut down, there's also nowhere near as many players roaming the wilds looking for farms anymore because it's no longer worth investing labour into hidden farms unless you have absolutely no other way to spend labour to get what you need. I don't doubt a few small, well-hidden tree farms would escape notice, and provide enough archeum to satisfy some of the more desperate F2P players that really don't want to spend money on the game.



Perhaps you're better informed then I am, but the last I heard from Trion it was they would lower the spring water needed to once a day, but it was still only going to give Dust. If anyone has a link to where Trion says otherwise, please post it. With numbers like that, Rumbling Trees are still king of the roost, which is why they took them out of the Racing Chest and made them Loyalty only.

Most of what I saw relating to archeum tree loot table buffs was from people talking about the patch, rather than actual developer feedback. The overall tone seemed to be that someone in one of the streams had implied that drop rates might be getting boosted to something like 7-15 shards per harvest with a decent chance at a number of crystals.

Rumbling trees are still good, and probably will be buffed to remain so if the standard trees are buffed. My main qualm your original suggestion was the quantity. 24x the current boost is, at worst, 48 crystals; at best, 96. That is a hell of a lot of archeum. And it basically comes from the loyalty store, which makes it a handout for patron players.


Labor pots. Nothing to do the math for. 2 labor pots per day with 1200 purses is very doable and actually if I could drink more than that I would go over 1200.


2 labour pots would in most cases yield a loss rather than a profit in opening purses. Purses are a gamble; sometimes you get lucky and make a profit, but a lot of the time you fail. I have a guildmate still trying to wean his way off larceny because he never gets anything from them. Since I joined my guild (somewhat recently) he's farmed around 3,000 purses and gotten maybe 5 moon/sun crystals and a few other assorted bits of valuable miscellania. For the most part, that's been my experience with them as well; I don't doubt most people farming them would say the same.



You are forgetting something important. If end game gear is accessible then something else that gives advantage will get very expensive - buffs, books and pots and food comes to mind. You solution will limit one part of the game - coin purse farming ( a lot of people enjoy it) and will directly buff other aspect of the game - alchemy, cooking, printing. Therefor it is not a solution.


Personally, I don't see a problem with consumables becoming more expensive, but I'm someone levelling the crafts to make them. You're correct in that I didn't think of it, though :P

But as I see it, having archeum trees giving an appropriate amount of archeum to the labour spent to grow them isn't just reasonable; it makes them worth using. At present, they're completely redundant. Nothing should be in the game that isn't going to be used.

As for people enjoying purse farming, I honestly cannot imagine anybody actually wanting to sit for hours on end, day after day, doing the same rotation of skills and food recovery on mobs that never do anything different for their gold. Where is the fun in it?


I have told you the solution - farm coin purses as it is the best gold per labor in game and craft with a group of people. For example I play with 2 real life friends and all of us need cloth armor so we are all farming purses and crafting the armors as we need 3 different cloth pieces. Works fine for us. As we are 3 there is no limit where we can farm purses we can access all the content.[/QUOTE]

Uhwop
03-05-2015, 09:23 AM
Thanks Maya4 your answer to this strange guy was spot on. :)



I don't need to provide a competing theory, this forum is filled with 'archeum theories' already. Most of them are decent ideas, but they have some hidden negative side effect. In the end it doesn't matter how good the ideas are because we are playing a game with a preplanned update schedule, and the content will not be changed because people on the forums want it this way or that. So knowing that you can do little to change things, you should accept it and finds ways to succeed anyways.

As Maya4 says the coin purses... that sweet sweet Archeum is there for the taking guys. Sadly it seems most AA players don't want to farm it. They would rather complain about it under the guise of "the supply is inadequate" when really they mean "I want Archeum to be cheap".

Like Maya I farm coinpurses for archeum, I use some for crafting and I sell off the rest. This amount of Archeum and gold has been adequate for my personal crafting needs, and any additional archeum I may need I buy with the gold I made off selling previous archeum loots. Also, as an "Archeum Farmer" so to speak I actually have experience on the sellers end of it. I can tell you that it is NOT always easy to sell archeum, it is a competition to sell it in most cases, and sometimes the market is flooded because none of you crafters are actually crafting making it impossible to sell. So when my auction posts of under priced Archeum goes unsold two days in a row, and I check the forum and see solutions to the archeum supply, I can't help but laugh. I'm sure there are other purse farmers out there that can relate to that. haha

(imo) The reason the archeum supply may feel broken at times, is because there simply isn't enough new or low level players around. More new players means more cheap archeum for the high level folks. Trying to fix something that will fix itself in time is sort of silly, and impatient.
It's not a lack of low level players.

Illustrious armor doesn't sell, gha in on par with mag/ low grade emph. Then you've got auroria. Mag gear will sell, but usually at a price that is near what it cost to craft.
Weapons are hard to sell if they aren't emph/ Delph, or a type you can't get from hasla. Diamond shores will help with this.

OP's math is strange, and suspect. I'm currently sitting on an emph ocean hood that needs to be crafted to Delph. According to the OP it should have taken me over a year to get it.

I expect a sharp drop in archeum prices after diamond shores releases. There will be a lot more purses being opened and archeum hitting the market. Any change they make needs to be based in the effect the patch has, and that can't happen until the patch is actually released and we get a chance to actually see its effect in action.

jeffbenefiel
03-05-2015, 10:57 AM
It's not a lack of low level players.

Illustrious armor doesn't sell, gha in on par with mag/ low grade emph. Then you've got auroria. Mag gear will sell, but usually at a price that is near what it cost to craft.
Weapons are hard to sell if they aren't emph/ Delph, or a type you can't get from hasla. Diamond shores will help with this.

OP's math is strange, and suspect. I'm currently sitting on an emph ocean hood that needs to be crafted to Delph. According to the OP it should have taken me over a year to get it.

I expect a sharp drop in archeum prices after diamond shores releases. There will be a lot more purses being opened and archeum hitting the market. Any change they make needs to be based in the effect the patch has, and that can't happen until the patch is actually released and we get a chance to actually see its effect in action.

It takes 3 Illustrious to Reforge into 1 Magnificent, it takes 3 Magnificent to Reforge into 1 Epherium, it takes 5 Epherium to Reforge into 1 Delphinad. 3*3*5=45. The math isn't suspect at all. This makes the assumption that you lose the RNG to get a Quake at any point along the line from Illustrious upward, and from my luck in this game that is a constant. I have made 15 Illustrious (not one of them came out Quake) pieces and Reforged two of them up to Magnificent, I then ran out of Archeum.

Also, in the Machining tree there's also a level of Reforging 5 Delphinad, at this point I can only wonder if that isn't for future release content (Uber Delphinad?).

Maya4
03-05-2015, 01:48 PM
@Wolf,

Coin purses are not a gamble. They are the best gold per labor. You get 1-1,5 silver per labor for opening and then you get loot. The loot is either good or very good, it is never bad or ok. No profession matches the coin purse farming. You do not need land to coin purse farm. You just need some ok gear and you are good to go. You do not have expenditures unless you farm over the content you are able to farm - then you spend gold for buffs. I have 90k commerce, I have not tried fishing, but I have pirated fishing boats. Nothing matches the gold gain per labor of the jester coin purses. Nothing. Every single labor worths it and brings profit.

Wolfguarde
03-05-2015, 07:57 PM
Let me state again: 3,000 purses, 5 crystals. Around 12 shards. Maybe four moonpoints, a prism and some other odds and ends among the miscellanious worthless drops. Labour on my server is worth at least 5 silver per point. There are significantly better ways to make money that don't rely on a gambling sink, a good number of which will yield above the labour cost they require to produce and won't require sinking the majority of your profits into labour potions to execute. If you're coming out on top more often than not, congratulations: you're one of the 5-10% that doesn't get shafted by RNG for purse farming. Most of the rest have moved on to more profitable quarters.

Edit: From memory, two of those crystals and a good number of the shards were starlight.

Moose Wayne
03-05-2015, 08:16 PM
The only worthless drops from coinpurses are the lunadrops. Those generally sell for 30s. 5-6s + 27s(after AH fee) = 32s That's 6.4s per labor assuming no larceny proficiency. It's 8s if you have 40k larceny. Adding in valuable drops like garden powders, glowing prisms and sun/moonlight archeum, you're making way more than 5s/labor outside of luck so ♥♥♥♥ty you could be struck by lightning and a meteor at once.

Wolfguarde
03-05-2015, 08:26 PM
Unfortunately, Wayne, nearly everyone I've spoken to seems somewhat likely to be struck by lightning. I myself haven't had much better luck, though I don't grind purses. I just open what I get.

tyranika
03-06-2015, 08:18 AM
It takes 3 Illustrious to Reforge into 1 Magnificent, it takes 3 Magnificent to Reforge into 1 Epherium, it takes 5 Epherium to Reforge into 1 Delphinad. 3*3*5=45. The math isn't suspect at all. This makes the assumption that you lose the RNG to get a Quake at any point along the line from Illustrious upward, and from my luck in this game that is a constant. I have made 15 Illustrious (not one of them came out Quake) pieces and Reforged two of them up to Magnificent, I then ran out of Archeum.

Also, in the Machining tree there's also a level of Reforging 5 Delphinad, at this point I can only wonder if that isn't for future release content (Uber Delphinad?).
That's not how machining works. You get an upgradable only if you reforge 3 illustrious. If you reforge 3 magnificent, you'll get a new sealed magnificent, that's all.
That's funny how you think this and at the same time you're saying there's not enough archeum. If machining would work like you think, there will be more than enough archeum.

jeffbenefiel
03-06-2015, 10:49 AM
That's not how machining works. You get an upgradable only if you reforge 3 illustrious. If you reforge 3 magnificent, you'll get a new sealed magnificent, that's all.
That's funny how you think this and at the same time you're saying there's not enough archeum. If machining would work like you think, there will be more than enough archeum.
Telling me that something I have already done in game doesn't work the way it has already worked, are you trolling? I have already done this.

jeffbenefiel
03-06-2015, 10:56 AM
Unfortunately, Wayne, nearly everyone I've spoken to seems somewhat likely to be struck by lightning. I myself haven't had much better luck, though I don't grind purses. I just open what I get.

Ya know Wolf, nearly every one of the most vociferous replies in this thread are fanatic coin purse botters. I take that as a reverse barometer that my idea is not far from the correct answer if not bang on. They can't really document their "method" because it involves illegal third party software that violates ToS. I'd challenge them to document the method with real math, otherwise they're botters flailing away with nonsensical clap trap divert any attention away from grand sweeping Archeum increases that involve Loyalty.

Necrodeemus
03-06-2015, 11:01 AM
fixing archeum does not fix the problem. People need to get off this bandwagon.

Fixing the RNG fixes the problem and makes archeum the same as all other ingredients.

I could have 500 sunlight crystals, and could craft untold amount of bows. But labor, other mats, and RNG are in play here, archeum is a smokescreen.

Fix RNG, Archeum becomes a valuable and well used product that it should be, not a throw away product to try and get delphinads

Moose Wayne
03-06-2015, 11:09 AM
Ya know Wolf, nearly every one of the most vociferous replies in this thread are fanatic coin purse botters. I take that as a reverse barometer that my idea is not far from the correct answer if not bang on. They can't really document their "method" because it involves illegal third party software that violates ToS. I'd challenge them to document the method with real math, otherwise they're botters flailing away with nonsensical clap trap divert any attention away from grand sweeping Archeum increases that involve Loyalty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi4NRqSEmj4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGMxQESFrE

http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?140426-1000-jester-coinpurse-open

Just a few examples of people opening a mass amount of coinpurses and getting decent amounts of archeum. As for what to farm, ever consider the reason why people farm in Rookborne a lot? Maybe the enraged giants and freed yetis that guarantee jester purse drops? It's usually a big fight in Sanddeep over the sharks because they're easy to kill and can drop jester's as well.

Also yes, that is how machining works. The first tier is guaranteed to proc the right type but after that it's all RNG

tyranika
03-06-2015, 11:55 AM
Telling me that something I have already done in game doesn't work the way it has already worked, are you trolling? I have already done this.
You did the illustrious reforging, not magnificent+. Stop being an ♥♥♥, especially when you're wrong.

jeffbenefiel
03-06-2015, 02:18 PM
You did the illustrious reforging, not magnificent+. Stop being an ♥♥♥, especially when you're wrong.

Ah, so you are trolling. So in your version of reality the same game mechanic spelled out in excruciating detail in folio, and corroborated by other players, is somehow wrong. I see. I will give your advice the consideration it deserves.

PhoenixrisingLA
03-06-2015, 02:43 PM
Ah, so you are trolling. So in your version of reality the same game mechanic spelled out in excruciating detail in folio, and corroborated by other players, is somehow wrong. I see. I will give your advice the consideration it deserves.

Only Illustrious reforging provides a guaranteed up-gradable item. Magnificent and up is a grab bag you need to open, just as if you forged it.

joeschmo
03-06-2015, 02:49 PM
Ah, so you are trolling. So in your version of reality the same game mechanic spelled out in excruciating detail in folio, and corroborated by other players, is somehow wrong. I see. I will give your advice the consideration it deserves.

what people are trying to tell you is that when you reforge mag+ gear you are not guaranteed to get the upgradeable. For example, when you machine 3 salvaged illustrious pieces it gives you an illustrious volcano bow. When you machine 3 salvaged magnificent bows you get a sealed magnificent bow which can go lightning, tidal, sunset or volcano. so not sure if you are trolling or what because you just seem ignorant to the actual facts of how crafting works.

peveay
03-06-2015, 04:35 PM
Ah, so you are trolling. So in your version of reality the same game mechanic spelled out in excruciating detail in folio, and corroborated by other players, is somehow wrong. I see. I will give your advice the consideration it deserves.

http://archeagedatabase.net/us/recipe/6520/?sl=1
http://archeagedatabase.net/us/recipe/6521/?sl=1

jeffbenefiel
03-06-2015, 05:35 PM
what people are trying to tell you is that when you reforge mag+ gear you are not guaranteed to get the upgradeable. For example, when you machine 3 salvaged illustrious pieces it gives you an illustrious volcano bow. When you machine 3 salvaged magnificent bows you get a sealed magnificent bow which can go lightning, tidal, sunset or volcano. so not sure if you are trolling or what because you just seem ignorant to the actual facts of how crafting works.

I owe all you guys an apology, sorry. I made an error, understandable really, as I assumed no publisher or game designer could be this grossly incompetent. To simultaneously change parameters after Illustrious giving nothing but more gambling AND keep key ingredients absurdly rare. The rarity is bad enough with guaranteed advancement for reforging but adding RNG goes beyond the pale. For the CEO to hide behind the skirts of the Dev team as endless streams of "we can't do anything " keep coming from Trion, I am beside myself with astonishment. Again, please accept an old fools apology

Wolfguarde
03-06-2015, 08:42 PM
Ya know Wolf, nearly every one of the most vociferous replies in this thread are fanatic coin purse botters. I take that as a reverse barometer that my idea is not far from the correct answer if not bang on. They can't really document their "method" because it involves illegal third party software that violates ToS. I'd challenge them to document the method with real math, otherwise they're botters flailing away with nonsensical clap trap divert any attention away from grand sweeping Archeum increases that involve Loyalty.

I have been arguing this patiently, presenting reasonable points on the solution to the problem without flaming people for it... and you're now implying I bot purses because I don't want to see archeum handouts in the loyalty store?

I don't have the math because I don't farm purses, legally or illegally. I don't have the labour to spare for it, and I don't like the idea of leaving my computer on overnight for labour. I'm promoting archeum trees as the solution here - again - because that's what they were originally implemented to do.

My first thought on seeing people talking about increasing the jester drops was how much easier it would make gold farming for bots. I did not bring this into the conversation because I understand that legitimate players tend to use this method as a labour sink as well. Personally, I would be quite happy to see coin purses made redundant for archeum flow. I don't use them unless I get them as a byproduct of questing or grinding mobs for pet experience.

Honestly dude, you were arguing well, and presenting good points. The back and forth is necessary for a good discussion. But accusing the other side of cheating because they won't back down from their argument is outright insulting.

Since it seems I may not get anything reasonable from you from this point onwards, let me recap:

- 2 crystals minimum from rumbling archeum trees.
- 24x 2 = 48 crystals. Loads of archeum. 24x 4 = 96. A stupid amount of archeum to get for free for no work.
- We have a resource that is meant to generate archeum at a reasonable rate in the game already, with a chronically underwhelming labour:reward ratio. That something is standard archeum trees, and they are currently not being used at all for this reason. There is no reason not to improve their harvest yield.
- Improving the harvest yield of rumbling archeum without improving standard archeum tree yield equates to a handout, and makes no sense unless they want to reward people not actually playing the game.


fixing archeum does not fix the problem. People need to get off this bandwagon.

Fixing the RNG fixes the problem and makes archeum the same as all other ingredients.

I could have 500 sunlight crystals, and could craft untold amount of bows. But labor, other mats, and RNG are in play here, archeum is a smokescreen.

Fix RNG, Archeum becomes a valuable and well used product that it should be, not a throw away product to try and get delphinads

Fixing RNG would definitely fix the gear shortage. The problem here is, well... we're playing a Korean grinder. These games are designed with terrible RNG built into the core framework for exactly the reasons we all tend to hate it - it keeps you grinding at the RNG casino with what are basically odds that will only be overcome by a very, very small handful of legitimate players. Nothing on the market is more reliant on luck than games like this, and that's the reason they make money. We're essentially playing a very convoluted, very rigged casino game with a lot of inhibitors to progression.

joeschmo
03-07-2015, 04:10 AM
1 crystal is the minimum from rumbling archeum trees and you can only get 1 a week so those are useless. Take that out of your post and i agree completely

Mystriss
03-07-2015, 06:12 AM
It's also 4 salvaged on Mag+ if my memory serves me (haven't done any for a while and I can't exactly get in game to check -
I'll get actual numbers next time I'm around my forges though.)

I personally reforge everything simply because I get both an archeum return and another shot to upgrade; and yea anything below mag (even jewelry) isn't particularly worth the AH fee... Reforging is labor intensive though, 100 labor is the /minimum/ and I believe high end reforge taps 200+



Also, I think the folks pushing for purse farming are neglecting the RNG factor quite a bit here. I have a purse farmer who puts in around 4-6 hours a day farming them for us. He's opened 400 bags and not gotten a single crystal out of them on more than one occasion (though admittedly his RNG has /always/ been crap.)

Regardless, he walks around with hundreds of purses because he never has enough labor to open them all (and he's online 24/7 at patron.) He pretty much does his dailies, GR, CR, and picks flowers along the way, and has an 8x8 with two bears and whatever random seeds he finds while out picking flowers. On a good week he can pop out one illustrious plate piece (which I typically reforge non-upgradeable) and it's usually another week before we have enough moonlight to try for upgrade pieces. (and that is /with/ me using the loyalty on all three of my accounts to buy Rumbling Archeum Trees.) Pretty dismal returns for his playtime if you ask me, but he happens to enjoy doing pretty much nothing but farming mobs heh





We'd figured it up a while back that regular Archeum Tree's were a huge loss in the labor to archeum ratio vs purses. That said, even if /all/ they do is lower the amount of water required (and thus the associated labor costs) then Archeum Trees should be a better return value. I do have to wonder if that alone can fix the archeum problem honestly. I know I'm planning to (re)start up an archeum tree farm and I'm sure some other folks are as well - perhaps this will put enough into the market?

Personally, I think we might need to table the discussion for a couple weeks until we see how the patch plays out.

jeffbenefiel
03-07-2015, 09:02 AM
I have been arguing this patiently, presenting reasonable points on the solution to the problem without flaming people for it... and you're now implying I bot purses because I don't want to see archeum handouts in the loyalty store? Nothing of the sort if you read my words. "Nearly every one of the most vociferous", your well reasoned arguments didn't come anywhere close to the definition of "vociferous". The forum format, as far as I can see, has no function that threads a reply to a specific poster (to show agreement or corroboration) without quoting their post, a retrograde of the forum format in my opinion.


I don't have the math because I don't farm purses, legally or illegally. I don't have the labour to spare for it, and I don't like the idea of leaving my computer on overnight for labour. I'm promoting archeum trees as the solution here - again - because that's what they were originally implemented to do.
Again, we are in accord with each other completely.

My first thought on seeing people talking about increasing the jester drops was how much easier it would make gold farming for bots. I did not bring this into the conversation because I understand that legitimate players tend to use this method as a labour sink as well. Personally, I would be quite happy to see coin purses made redundant for archeum flow. I don't use them unless I get them as a byproduct of questing or grinding mobs for pet experience. We are two for two, and for the same reasons.


Honestly dude, you were arguing well, and presenting good points. The back and forth is necessary for a good discussion. But accusing the other side of cheating because they won't back down from their argument is outright insulting. I give as good as I get. I see nothing wrong with my logic either. There's no good reason to NOT be forthcoming with numbers when personal experience and random sampling of other players experience produce orders of magnitude different numbers then what they claim and the numbers they spout run are suspiciously similar to what you would get from running a bot 24/7. It might be an excuse for one of them to not have done the math, but for none of them? I'm sorry, that dog wont hunt.


Since it seems I may not get anything reasonable from you from this point onwards, let me recap:

- 2 crystals minimum from rumbling archeum trees.
- 24x 2 = 48 crystals. Loads of archeum. 24x 4 = 96. A stupid amount of archeum to get for free for no work.
- We have a resource that is meant to generate archeum at a reasonable rate in the game already, with a chronically underwhelming labour:reward ratio. That something is standard archeum trees, and they are currently not being used at all for this reason. There is no reason not to improve their harvest yield.
- Improving the harvest yield of rumbling archeum without improving standard archeum tree yield equates to a handout, and makes no sense unless they want to reward people not actually playing the game. Given the dysfunctional relationship between Trion and XL, it may become a defacto only solution. If Korea doesn't see a problem, they will not write the code, and if they see that it will result in the NA/EU servers being perceived as a better deal then Korea, resulting in player/customer loss, they wont write the code. It doesn't matter how reasonable the argument is, if they smell even a hint of their own player base loss they will leave NA with the ♥♥♥♥ty end of the stick.




Fixing RNG would definitely fix the gear shortage. The problem here is, well... we're playing a Korean grinder. These games are designed with terrible RNG built into the core framework for exactly the reasons we all tend to hate it - it keeps you grinding at the RNG casino with what are basically odds that will only be overcome by a very, very small handful of legitimate players. Nothing on the market is more reliant on luck than games like this, and that's the reason they make money. We're essentially playing a very convoluted, very rigged casino game with a lot of inhibitors to progression.
Indeed, and the longer Trion doesn't fix this the more assuredly their customer base will erode in favor of less grindy games. About the ONLY way they can do end runs around the stone wall that is XL is the loophole they left themselves....the cash shop.

Zefyres
03-07-2015, 11:52 AM
Not sure how this is 7 pages.

A 24x buff on rumbling trees would make no sense in terms of economic balance for loyalty points. Worker's comps would triple in price, tax certs would go way up, etc...

While I agree we need more archeum, rumbling trees are mostly for TS trees. They are already balanced in terms of cost vs what they provide (mostly TS trees) so this would be the wrong way. A sloppy fix like this would break a lot of other things and 24x buff is way overdoing it anyway. Archeum should certainly not be hand-fed through loyalty points either...

CPs are legitimate ways make money. Yes bots do it too but that doesn't mean you remove a game mechanic which is not the real problem.

We'll see how the archeum supply changes next patch over time.

Another point is that high tier gear IS supposed to be rare and hard to obtain (i.e., impossible for most). If everyone can easily reach 'end game' what would be the point? People will always complain about not being able to obtain the best possible gear but it's part of the psychology of MMO/RPG design that you may never be able to get this stuff even if you're working up towards it.

Wolfguarde
03-07-2015, 10:43 PM
Nothing of the sort if you read my words. "Nearly every one of the most vociferous", your well reasoned arguments didn't come anywhere close to the definition of "vociferous".
*Snip*


Fair enough. I'm used to seeing attacks like that made when someone gets tired of arguing. Sorry for misreading.



Given the dysfunctional relationship between Trion and XL, it may become a defacto only solution. If Korea doesn't see a problem, they will not write the code, and if they see that it will result in the NA/EU servers being perceived as a better deal then Korea, resulting in player/customer loss, they wont write the code. It doesn't matter how reasonable the argument is, if they smell even a hint of their own player base loss they will leave NA with the ♥♥♥♥ty end of the stick.

To be honest, I don't see any major issues getting fixed in a hurry unless we wind up with more people who actually care about their job working on Trion's end. Khrolan has made a good start; I'm waiting to see if he burns out or gets fired for being the only dissenting voice in a team that doesn't really want to put in the legwork to make the game work for us. If we had a whole team that cared about the game, we'd probably be seeing a lot more changes on our front - it's a lot harder to ignore a team that's insistently pestering you to fix something than it is to ignore a few dot points on a monthly report.

The main problem - the cause behind most of the deficiencies in the game, I feel - is that the companies pushing the game are lazy. Compounding that would be the morale hit they took with each major content release (open release, Auroria, and quite likely Diamond Shores in the near future). It doesn't make for a good mix, and the answer is probably to get more new blood flowing the company.


Not sure how this is 7 pages.

Another point is that high tier gear IS supposed to be rare and hard to obtain (i.e., impossible for most). If everyone can easily reach 'end game' what would be the point? People will always complain about not being able to obtain the best possible gear but it's part of the psychology of MMO/RPG design that you may never be able to get this stuff even if you're working up towards it.

I've snipped out most of your post, as I agree with you for the most part. However, the archeum bottleneck is an artificial element of difficulty. Trion's publicly acknowledged that it's too low, and they're working out what they want to do with it. High tier gear is definitely meant to be difficult to obtain, but not this difficult. That hardest tier of difficulty is meant to be for obtaining the highest regradeable tiers for your gear.

Maya4
03-08-2015, 03:47 AM
You do not understand do you?

Everything works fine. Go farm coin purses - the best gold per labor point.

There are small problems with weapon and armor crafting but they are getting fixed slowly with obsydian weapons and armors.
No ideq about jewel crafting - there it seems to be a major problem. But Karkasse jewels were a semi-fix to this.

Archeum trees are also getting some boost soon.

There could be an option for archeum as a trade run reward, but that would bring an insane amount of archeum in game too.
So yes go and farm coin purses if you want archeum.

Wolfguarde
03-08-2015, 05:29 AM
If coinpurse yield rates as they are at the moment were a solution, Maya, people would not be complaining about the chronic lack of archeum in the system. They were complaining while the bot networks were still feeding archeum into the market before they were destroyed. And all those bots were doing was farming purses.

And not everyone wants to sit for hours on end farming coinpurses, even if they get lucky and make a profit from it. There's a hell of a lot of other ways to spend your time and labour, and archeum trees would be much more labour-efficient with a properly balanced harvest yield - not to mention not being a total waste of time, effort and labour 3/4 of the time.

Maya4
03-08-2015, 09:40 AM
Farmed 474 purses for 1 hour today. 9 shards and 4 crystals. Tonight may craft an illustrious club. Bots can not farm purses that fast. Trust me, the general archeum is flooded from players not bots. I perhaps make more purses per hour than a bot for 24/7 farming. And I am a badly geared player.

If nobody wants to sit and farm for hours, there will be no archeum at all. This is the way to get it. This is a Korean grind game. You will have to grind. Otherwise do not expect stuff, unless you want to pay for it.

I am glad though. Less people farming purses - more gold and items for me :)

jeffbenefiel
03-08-2015, 10:49 PM
Farmed 474 purses for 1 hour today. 9 shards and 4 crystals. Tonight may craft an illustrious club. Bots can not farm purses that fast. Trust me, the general archeum is flooded from players not bots. I perhaps make more purses per hour than a bot for 24/7 farming. And I am a badly geared player.

If nobody wants to sit and farm for hours, there will be no archeum at all. This is the way to get it. This is a Korean grind game. You will have to grind. Otherwise do not expect stuff, unless you want to pay for it.

I am glad though. Less people farming purses - more gold and items for me :)

From the database of the player who has statistics on 54000 jester purses opened, it only resulted in 224 Moonlight Crystal, that's half of 1%, the other flavors of Archeum were even worse. Your sampling is also 2000 labor (any formula that assumes 50k labor spent already on Larceny is unrealistic).

Veerdin
03-08-2015, 10:58 PM
Math? In crafting?

Here, let me show you all the "math" that crafting requires:

Take a bunch of money, some annoying-to-obtain and expensive materials, and a whole lot of base resources... Now, roll a dice. If the dice hits 6, you get to keep everything. If it rolls any other number, all the way up to 1000, you throw it all into a furnace and start over.

That's the "math" of crafting.

Maya4
03-09-2015, 01:51 PM
From the database of the player who has statistics on 54000 jester purses opened, it only resulted in 224 Moonlight Crystal, that's half of 1%, the other flavors of Archeum were even worse. Your sampling is also 2000 labor (any formula that assumes 50k labor spent already on Larceny is unrealistic).

and 224 crystals are 44 essences. 44 Essence are enough for 7 delphinad crafts. 54k jesters are 216k labor - which for an active playerr is less than 2 months labor. For the average Joe - 3 months of playing. For the lazy Joe 4-5 months. Lets say the shard drops cover the the smaller crafts. Wohooo we got to the conclusion of what I said - if you farm about 1000 jesters per day you will perhaps craft easily 4-5 delphinad weapons in 2 months, why not even Aynard weapon. Rawr. And that is if you are an active player.

What the avarage joe does though. He has some extreme passive outcome such as land. He spends his labor for shyt. He can not even afford buying labor, cause well he spends it for shyt and cant make an income. Although players said for months that the best gold per labor is purses, they still keep spending it on shyt. And then they come - HEY NO ARCHEUM WTF. There is archeum - go and farm it.

joeschmo
03-09-2015, 02:59 PM
and 224 crystals are 44 essences. 44 Essence are enough for 7 delphinad crafts. 54k jesters are 216k labor - which for an active playerr is less than 2 months labor. For the average Joe - 3 months of playing. For the lazy Joe 4-5 months. Lets say the shard drops cover the the smaller crafts. Wohooo we got to the conclusion of what I said - if you farm about 1000 jesters per day you will perhaps craft easily 4-5 delphinad weapons in 2 months, why not even Aynard weapon. Rawr. And that is if you are an active player.

What the avarage joe does though. He has some extreme passive outcome such as land. He spends his labor for shyt. He can not even afford buying labor, cause well he spends it for shyt and cant make an income. Although players said for months that the best gold per labor is purses, they still keep spending it on shyt. And then they come - HEY NO ARCHEUM WTF. There is archeum - go and farm it.

4-5 delphs... try 4-5 epherium maybe. in your perfect world without rng archeum is plentiful and farming it for 4 months makes sense because you are "guaranteed" a delph. The game doesnt work that way. Some people might try that, end up having the worst rng and not be able to make it past mag. With the way rng is, archeum is in fact a problem. The people that think the amount of archeum in the game is ok are the ones that got their delphs early on because of good rng.

Tubesteak
03-09-2015, 04:33 PM
Only a simpleton would suggest farming tens of thousands of mobs to get archeum is the solution. There is not enough archeum in the game, there never has been. Trion knows this, that is why they have the archeum boxes and the reason they added the rumbling trees in the cash shop back in the day. It's all been orchestrated to make them money. After all, XL and trion were/are in financial troubles.

The manipulation trion does to drops in the game would be criminal in the real world. If only we knew the behind the scenes....

I thinnk the best solution for archeum is to allow it to be extracted from dungeon gear drops, they already have limitations on how many times a dungeon can be run so what are they waiting for.

Maya4
03-09-2015, 06:56 PM
4-5 delphs... try 4-5 epherium maybe. in your perfect world without rng archeum is plentiful and farming it for 4 months makes sense because you are "guaranteed" a delph. The game doesnt work that way. Some people might try that, end up having the worst rng and not be able to make it past mag. With the way rng is, archeum is in fact a problem. The people that think the amount of archeum in the game is ok are the ones that got their delphs early on because of good rng.

Lets say I have only about 5 hours per day to play the last 2 months. I have crafted 3 Eupherium clubs by farming purses. If I had more time, I d be further forward. But guess what ... with obsydian weapons soon I will have a weapon better than Delphinad. So .... erm? This is for 2 months of 5 hours per day playing.

peveay
03-09-2015, 07:16 PM
Lets say I have only about 5 hours per day to play the last 2 months. I have crafted 3 Eupherium clubs by farming purses. If I had more time, I d be further forward. But guess what ... with obsydian weapons soon I will have a weapon better than Delphinad. So .... erm? This is for 2 months of 5 hours per day playing.

you just were lucky,crafting in this game require only luck and not any skill at all.sorry to say that but that don't make you better,just more lucky ...

joeschmo
03-09-2015, 07:51 PM
you just were lucky,crafting in this game require only luck and not any skill at all.sorry to say that but that don't make you better,just more lucky ...

Ya.. Maya what dont you understand about rng?

Maya4
03-09-2015, 11:01 PM
you just were lucky,crafting in this game require only luck and not any skill at all.sorry to say that but that don't make you better,just more lucky ...

Making 48 clubs and getting 3 eupherium ... would not call that lucky. Hardwork, dedication mate :)
Basically I get 1 illu club per day just with coin purses.

peveay
03-10-2015, 03:15 AM
Making 48 clubs and getting 3 eupherium ... would not call that lucky. Hardwork, dedication mate :)
Basically I get 1 illu club per day just with coin purses.

rofl you think you are the only one?90k larceny here,aprox 80 bows since the release not any one gone after mag!yes you were lucky,that's all,or you seriously don't understand how this game work.What you don't understand in RNG?

Aeducan76
03-10-2015, 03:21 AM
rofl you think you are the only one?90k larceny here,aprox 80 bows since the release not any one gone after mag!yes you were lucky,that's all,or you seriously don't understand how this game work.What you don't understand in RNG?

There is actually nothing to understand about RNG for it is RNG. With a taste of having code that will actually make successful regrades/crafting fail, in order to have ppl put more money into the game.
And there´s the thing that Proficiency does not really provide a bonus to crafting success. There is a rumor that it increases the chance, but any decent gaming company would just tell us the % and how much the base % of a regrade/crafting increase is.

Maya4
03-10-2015, 08:59 AM
I am done arguing honestly. I will not share the secret math behind crafting as you will not understand it. But let me tell ya if it is 1/7 craft success at minimum, with crafting 1 delphinad and 6 eupherium you basically have crafted your delphinad for free. The price of magnificent is still very high, epherium breaks even and illustrius is easily salvageable. So yeh whatevz ... keep on doing the trade runs :D

peveay
03-10-2015, 09:02 AM
what's secret?It's rng,or you brake the game or use a hack?

Denick
03-10-2015, 09:47 AM
I am done arguing honestly. I will not share the secret math behind crafting as you will not understand it. But let me tell ya if it is 1/7 craft success at minimum, with crafting 1 delphinad and 6 eupherium you basically have crafted your delphinad for free. The price of magnificent is still very high, epherium breaks even and illustrius is easily salvageable. So yeh whatevz ... keep on doing the trade runs :D

You do realize just because you take 7 magnificent items to epherium you are not guaranteed one that will be upgrade able. I have taken 12 magnificent pieces to epherium at one time and unsealed them one after the other and still not gotten a piece that can go to delphinad. So yeah I don't think you understand the game and the fact that you have had decent luck.

Also, sure people can farm gold and buy the gear to avoid this, problem is there will not be gear to buy if people are not crafting because they are sick of the BS.

Maya4
03-12-2015, 07:49 AM
It is not - yet 7 magnificent cover the price of Eupherium or even more. So if you craft even 1/7 you have made basically a double profit. Got it now? What bothers me now is that the library purses are godawful.