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View Full Version : Are Mages OP pre 1.0?



Fook
03-21-2014, 08:00 PM
So, one thing that I really do like about the 1.0 patch from what I've seen is the nerf that mages have received. Right now, on Russian open beta, A mage that has Sorcery and Conjury can simply bubble me, then perform their lightning combos, as well as a backflip and 2 fireballs and I am dead. I have no way to react to that with such hard CC.

There is the argument that mages excel at 1v1 but aren't as good at group PvP. I dont think that is true either, Mages have nice AoE, even if it is radial.

Opinions?

Viciskander
03-21-2014, 08:27 PM
Mages not OP .... only Easy to play ;)

FantasMic
03-21-2014, 09:16 PM
Mages are crazy damage in every MMO :P

'OP' classes don't exist unless there's a huge difference in the damage formula. The real OP is to play and master the class and role you like.

ApocaRUFF
03-21-2014, 09:29 PM
Mages are great in both solo and group combat. They do a lot of damage, but if you can lock them down they're dead in just a few hits, even if you're a tank character that doesn't have a focus on DPS. They definitely do have an advantage, though. Any class that can do damage from a distance has an edge. Physical-based ranged classes can also maintain large amounts of damage from distance and crits.

Of course, the game has a lot of counters and abilities available to non-mage characters to help deal with them. The only problem is, a majority of the playerbase just doesn't have the skill and/or knowledge to make use of them effectively while fighting mages. As others have said, mages are easy to play compared to melee classes. That gives them a very OP feeling, which gives them a bigger reputation than they deserve.

I play a Gladiator/Soldier (Warfare, Protection, Will)

KrayPanda
03-21-2014, 09:56 PM
Some trees are very high CC based and some negate it. Some are damage heavy and some resistance heavy. All styles are welcome and playable but I believe what will set the good players from the regular ones will not have anything to do with what skill trees you pick but how well you can control you and your opponents position. There will be some mainstream choices but all in all I think that you should find the play style you enjoy the most and you will naturally get better with time :)

Tuckrain
03-21-2014, 10:49 PM
I wouldnt call them OP right away to be honest (lvl 50 policitan here) the only problem is that mages scale less with gear and more with level. so at the moment if you look at the russian servers mages seem op since most of the endgame gear isnt in play yet (max level 2h weapon is 46.. not even 50 yet) as soon as more high level gear will be arround you will see a overall more balanced combat feel

ApocaRUFF
03-21-2014, 11:03 PM
I wouldnt call them OP right away to be honest (lvl 50 policitan here) the only problem is that mages scale less with gear and more with level. so at the moment if you look at the russian servers mages seem op since most of the endgame gear isnt in play yet (max level 2h weapon is 46.. not even 50 yet) as soon as more high level gear will be arround you will see a overall more balanced combat feel

This is quite accurate as well. From what I've seen, a level 40-something melee with blue crafted gear can pretty much destroy a mage 1v1 (unless that mage is extremely good... in which case it comes down to who is the better player, which is what PVP is all about rather than who has the best skill trees or gear).

Ezenkrul
03-22-2014, 12:17 AM
Honestly I think it depends on who is playing what class, the gear they have and how the battle starts out. Most of the time that I lose as a mage is because they caught me while I was looking away or on a mob. I will win 100% if I catch them off guard. If we both see one another at the same time, it is just chance, based on stuns, critical and honestly how well I execute my attacks and how they execute theirs.

Peter
03-22-2014, 12:37 AM
I feel mages work better in group PvP when they have people to peel. In 1v1, unless they get the jump on someone they get owned hard by all the hard CC that comes from finesse and warfare and the longer range from archery. The only real counter is to get stealth or blink as a mage to close gaps and sneak up on players. Though in reality equally matched 1v1 is not a realistic expectation in open world PvP.

Majiinfreddy
03-22-2014, 03:14 AM
Mage's are the most OP class in AA atm.
With the right build, Clown comes into mind, you can kill most people (If the combo procs) in a matter for 2-3 seconds.

There's a reason for XL games nerfing their fireball for 300%? in Korea. lol.

AeonAuron
03-22-2014, 03:44 AM
Yeah they definitely are. Especially that lightning skill oh god >.<

LlexX
03-22-2014, 04:51 AM
Yes, mages are very OP in the pre 1.0.

KeksX
03-22-2014, 04:56 AM
Their DMG is definitely OP. They are really squishy, luckily, but if you can't catch them by either stunchaining them or anything like that you're pretty dead.

MiMMoSiN
03-22-2014, 05:07 AM
So, one thing that I really do like about the 1.0 patch from what I've seen is the nerf that mages have received. Right now, on Russian open beta, A mage that has Sorcery and Conjury can simply bubble me, then perform their lightning combos, as well as a backflip and 2 fireballs and I am dead. I have no way to react to that with such hard CC.

There is the argument that mages excel at 1v1 but aren't as good at group PvP. I dont think that is true either, Mages have nice AoE, even if it is radial.

Opinions?

Is obvius you are a noob. In this game exist a lot of break CC. If a mage kill you without possibility to do nothing, the problem is not the mage, the problem are you and your hands.

LlexX
03-22-2014, 05:23 AM
Is obvius you are a noob. In this game exist a lot of break CC. If a mage kill you without possibility to do nothing, the problem is not the mage, the problem are you and your hands.
You can't break the Bouble CC, just saying.

MiMMoSiN
03-22-2014, 05:46 AM
You can't break the Bouble CC, just saying.

if a mage kill you without possibility to do nothing, the problem is not the mage, the problem are you and your hands. just saying.

KeksX
03-22-2014, 05:47 AM
if a mage kill you without possibility to do nothing, the problem is not the mage, the problem are you and your hands. just saying.

Did you play ArcheAge?

Preacher
03-22-2014, 06:27 AM
They certainly are. Though as people said, it might have to do that their damage scales too well with levels, while other classes like Rangers/Melee depend on equipment a lot.

Anyone telling mages are no least slightly OP - does not play AA.

MiMMoSiN
03-22-2014, 06:29 AM
Did you play ArcheAge?

Enough in Kr server and RU server .o

KeksX
03-22-2014, 06:31 AM
Enough in Kr server and RU server .o

Then why are you saying this? Mages have an incredible burst that, no matter how fast you are, can not be resisted unless you get INSTANT heal. There's a reason 1.0 saw a HUGE nerf on them!

MiMMoSiN
03-22-2014, 06:34 AM
I'm not saying that mages are not op. im say that its impossible in the same conditions a mage kill you not let you do anything

KeksX
03-22-2014, 06:36 AM
I'm not saying that mages are not op. im say that its impossible in the same conditions a mage kill you not let you do anything

Yeah as I said, if you can't stunchain them you're pretty dead. There's no in between: Either 100% them or 100% you. But anyway, in 1.0 things are different again.

Preacher
03-22-2014, 06:43 AM
I'm not saying that mages are not op. im say that its impossible in the same conditions a mage kill you not let you do anything

There is a lot of situations where its impossible in the same conditions to do anything regardless if its mage attacking you or other class. PvP in AA is really fast, damage scales greatly, and you can be ambushed/stunlocked/almost instakilled by a lot of classes be it mage, ranger, melee stealther. Unless you take Ressistance tree, you are very vulnerable to CCs, and even without CCs its easy to nuke down someone in seconds. Let along in groups or mass pvp where ranged is everything.

Problem with mage is that damage scales really well, most dont have notable magic ressistance (unlike melee parry/blocking/high defence), and in some builds you can litterally just sneak to enemy and aoe whole groups of them pretty much instantly (well, depends on gear).

A simple combo of jump back (from stealth tree) and using insta fireballs is already enougth to nuke down half the HP of most enemies. Hypnocism sphere+ Lightning + bard/mysticism enchanced crits is pretty much oneshot. And not forget how well magic spells combo in group, so theres litterally no reason to play anything else.

Atm by far the most powerful ingame are two archtypes: mages of any kind, and heavy armor tactics (defence/ressistance/necromancy). The rest is far inferior. Rangers will top the mages in damage in top gear eventually, but not on this stage of game.

Nilv
03-22-2014, 06:49 AM
I'm playing mage myself and i can see why people call it OP. Burst of mage is massive on single target, which makes it great for solo 1v1 ganking. But if we are talking about for example 3v3, mage becomes quite useless after burst is done.

definitely glad that they are nerfing it on 1.0

Krogger
03-22-2014, 06:51 AM
mages in archeage with the right skill build PRE 1.0 were very OP .. pve and pvp wise VERY OP lol

Palinore
03-22-2014, 07:02 AM
Mages definitely have the advantage with the right build.

Vibe
03-22-2014, 07:46 AM
They are definitely strong but all the hard hitting spells have long cast times so melee who can chainstun/disable can have a pretty easy time with mages.

aphelion
03-22-2014, 08:15 AM
I think Trion has the ability to tweak the numbers on powers. If that's true and the Mage seems OP in Alpha/Beta, I would expect them to be brought more in line with others even without fully implementing the much maligned 1.0 patch.

Thigrai
03-23-2014, 12:25 PM
Assault/Finesse can knock you down and one shot you. There are some aspects that need to be tuned in EVERY class. Saying mage is OP is like saying an iceberg consists of only it's tip.

Preacher
03-23-2014, 03:33 PM
Assault/Finess are ok. Solo PvP in AA is irrelevant since pretty much any class can kill other if attacking first. Try sea/group combat. Mage spells combo like mad, benefit mostfrom CC and wipe groups at range and melee distance. To kill someone with Assault you need to get to enemy lines/range of attacks, meaning even if you lucky enougth to not be insta CCed/killer you`ll be dead after you finish "that one mage". Not to mention that if you want to buld duelling mage to easilly beat the "one shotting rogues" - you can.

Though as i stated before - mages are that strong in begining of the game. It evens out later since rangers become OP instead.

Erynox
03-23-2014, 03:44 PM
Meh, I think that Mages are pure damagers in most games, but what they have in damage, they lack in sustainability.

Sekkusu
03-23-2014, 07:48 PM
I do think Mages are on the strong side, specifically speaking, anything with Magic/Conjury can easily win duels and nearly 1 hit most classes. And the trade off is? Nothing, because there's a third class to help out any weaknesses the build has which are already limited.

xReorks
03-23-2014, 09:56 PM
Meh, I think that Mages are pure damagers in most games, but what they have in damage, they lack in sustainability.

Yea,classic glass cannon and i believe many players just should learn what every skill does and how to counter it.
As soon people will start to assist on the right targets mages will be less of a threat and more "balanced".
Game balance should not be oriented toward 1 v 1 but the greater fights are those that really matter in an MMO.
I'm actually shocked from seeing fraps where people chases heavy armored guys and letting mages facerolling people in massive pvp.

Kuro1n
03-23-2014, 10:22 PM
Yea,classic glass cannon and i believe many players just should learn what every skill does and how to counter it.
As soon people will start to assist on the right targets mages will be less of a threat and more "balanced".
Game balance should not be oriented toward 1 v 1 but the greater fights are those that really matter in an MMO.
I'm actually shocked from seeing fraps where people chases heavy armored guys and letting mages facerolling people in massive pvp.
Well some heavy armored guys are easier to kill and has more burst than some mages, that is just how it is in this game. Can never trust what you see kind of... ._.

Nempt
04-20-2014, 10:04 PM
I feel like maybe they should add a CC debuff that reduced the amount of time you are slowed/feared/stunned/knockdown ect. against that individual; then that debuff decays over like 15 seconds going from 50-5%. this way not one single specialization is nerfed.. just the ability to be stun locked by a single enemy player.

Zappygun
04-21-2014, 05:29 AM
In a game like this it's hard to call anything OP, it's too diverse. There's this thing called 'metagame'. Currently people think mages are OP because they generally deal well in 1v1/small group PvP. However, after a while of getting owned the rest of the community finds a build that can counter that (probably like a stealth or distance closer with high burst damage that can quickly take out a mage, before they can become a threat). After that, the people who play mages - which by then is usually the larger part of the community - will start saying that this new build is OP because it wrecks mages. Then the community finds a way to deal with them, etc.
Metagame.

Also, if you get hit by one CC often in a short time you get a 30 second immunity to it.

Nempt
04-21-2014, 01:34 PM
Also, if you get hit by one CC often in a short time you get a 30 second immunity to it.

ty very good to know ^^

Alakuu
04-21-2014, 01:42 PM
Those commenting that they aren't.
Have you looked at KR patch notes? Sure google translate isn't great. But there is a clear feel at least from XLgames that Mages have some major balancing issues, and as such received some major nerfs.
I think the fact that nerfs went through already really makes it hard to suggest there wasn't a problem.

Scion Storm
04-21-2014, 02:08 PM
I don't know if it's op but I will say it's easier to use.
And stealth on a mage is ridiculous. I haven't found a build yet i'd find OP.

xReorks
04-21-2014, 02:22 PM
I beg yours to learn the fact that isn't necessarily overpowered whoever does more damage than you do.

AND THAT NO FREAKING MMO CAN BE BALANCED ABOUT 1V1 SCENARIO!!!!!!!!!!!!

MMO = MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE...blabla...

Massive does NOT mean 1 dude against the server crying cause he can't kill everybody.
THANK YOU. :D

Zappygun
04-21-2014, 03:08 PM
Those commenting that they aren't.
Have you looked at KR patch notes? Sure google translate isn't great. But there is a clear feel at least from XLgames that Mages have some major balancing issues, and as such received some major nerfs.
I think the fact that nerfs went through already really makes it hard to suggest there wasn't a problem.
Thing is, there isn't really a 'mage' in games like these, because of the whole mix & match. If one build is very clearly far more effective than any others (unlikely, but it can happen), then there's something up with a few specific skills in some of the trees and/or the synergy between trees. If something is nerfed, then it'll be those specific skills and not 'mages'. I can't say exactly whether or not certain builds focusing on magic damage are overpowered because I've not played the game, but I say that unless there is a very obvious difference in effectivity of certain skill combinations, XL has made a mistake nerfing them. Not too long ago, vocation builds used to be called 'O.P.'


Let me tell you a story about a different game, but a similar situation.
I am an avid Guns of Icarus Online player, at intervals. I have been playing it off and on for around and about a year and a half now (since beta, basically).
One time, someone introduced me to a certain ship build that was relatively new and not many people knew about it. It was what later became known as the 'Fisher-Price Build'; a Junker with two Artemis Rockets on one side, one Artemis on the front, and a Gatling Gun and Mortar combo on the other side. It turned out to be very effective in any situation, as the Artemises (Artemes?) with Burst ammo loaded was a very good long-mid range component disabling weapon that could destroy weapons and engines very effectively while the Gatling (Greased rounds) would tear up the hull armour at mid-close range and the Mortar (Charged rounds) finished the job in no time. Not only were the weapons with the right ammo loaded a very effective combination; the Junker's design also allowed for the three Artemises to target the same enemy, wreaking havoc and making the on-board engineers very sad and if the enemy got too close for the Artemises to be effective the pilot needed only to turn it slightly for the Gatling and Mortar to be able to fire.
Not too long after my first introduction into the Fisher-Price Build, I began seeing it everywhere; effectively replacing the Pyramidions that were all over the place before. Many people were saying it was OP and for a long time it reigned as high king of the skies.
Until one day... the Pyramidion returned with a fresh build and a lust for vengeance! Some smart guy/gal had cooked up the perfect way to disable the Fisher-Price Build, by loading a Caronnade (a sort of shotgun that deals massive damage to balloons) and Hades (explosions that set things on fire!) cannon on the two front points. The weakness the Fisher-Price Build has, is the fact that it has a very poor vertical firing arc. So the tactic was for the Pyramidion pilot to get his ship in close using Moonshine, firing the Hades (Lesmok rounds) for some minor disabling and to keep the enemy engineers off their guns putting out fires while they were out of Caronnade range. Once they were in range, the Hades would switch to Greased rounds for greater firing speed and to shorten the activation range (the Hades' shells require some time before they can really do damage). At the same time, the Caronnade would start firing Greased rounds at the balloon, so that the enemy ship would drop to the ground. A grounded ship is a very bad thing, because the hull armour and ship health take damage over time from grinding on the floor, but the poor Junker wouldn't be able to get up before the Caronnade would keep breaking the balloon. Then it was a simple matter of waiting until the hull armour would break and then the Hades could take it out very quickly.
That was the end of the Fisher-Price Build's reign. The metagame had moved on and found a way to dethrone the Overpowered Mad King. Now the Fisher-Price Build is nothing more than a good ship for beginning pilots, because it's easy to fly and position.

Do you see where I'm going with this? I'll put it plainly for those who don't: usually in games like these that allow for pretty much endless customization, a seemingly overpowered build will everntually be toppled by a build especially designed to take them out.


P.S. For those who are unfamiliar with the ammo, ship and gun types in GoIO, here's a list of definitions (I may get some of the weapon names wrong, used to the slang terms; also some of the ammo types may alter reload times, don't know it off the top of my head):
Junker - a slow-moving, sluggish medium-sized ship with five gun points; two on portside, two starboardside and one at the front.
Pyramidion - a medium-speed, medium-sized ship with four gun points; two facing forward just under the balloon, one at the center port side and one at the rear port side.
Artemis Rocket Launcher - a weapon that fires a fast-moving, straight-flying rocket that deals high splash damage to weapons and engines over long-medium range; great for disabling enemy ships.
Whirlwind Light Gatling - a fast-firing gatling gun that deals high damage to engines and hull armour over medium-short range; great for taking out hull armour before taking out the ship with a different weapon.
Scylla Mortar - a weapon that fires several explosive rounds, normally dealing low splash damage over medium-short range, but tears up hull health once the armour is down; great for finishing off a ship without armour.
Barking Dog Light Caronnade - a weapon that fires many pellets over a wide spread at once, dealing high damage to balloons and engines and medium damage to hull armour over a short range; great for taking out enemy balloons and keeping them down.
Hades Cannon - a weapon that fires arcing projectiles over a medium range. Before the activation time (about half a second) has passed, deals virtually no damage to anything, medium to ship health. Once the rounds are active, however, deals high splash damage to engines and ship health and medium to guns; and has a high chance of setting damaged components on fire (that includes hull armour and balloon as well). Effective for disabling, keeping engineers off the guns because they need to put out fires and for finishing off ships without armour.
Burst Rounds - an ammo type that increases splash damage, area of effect of explosive weapons and clip size.
Greased Rounds - an ammo type that decreases the damage per projectile, but increases the firing speed and clip size.
Charged Rounds - an ammo type that increases the damage per projectile, but decreases clip size.
Lesmok Rounds - an ammo type that increases projectile speed and lift, meaning it will travel much further, in a shallower arc.
Moonshine - a rather... heavy type of alcohol that the pilot can choose to bring aboard the ship. It can be poured into the engines' fuel intake to greatly increase speed for as long as the skill is active, at the cost of massive damage over time to the engines.

Alakuu
04-21-2014, 03:45 PM
Thing is, there isn't really a 'mage' in games like these, because of the whole mix & match. If one build is very clearly far more effective than any others (unlikely, but it can happen), then there's something up with a few specific skills in some of the trees and/or the synergy between trees. If something is nerfed, then it'll be those specific skills and not 'mages'. I can't say exactly whether or not certain builds focusing on magic damage are overpowered because I've not played the game, but I say that unless there is a very obvious difference in effectivity of certain skill combinations, XL has made a mistake nerfing them. Not too long ago, vocation builds used to be called 'O.P.'


Snip

This largely is my point of view.

Generally something isn't OP unless there is clearly a numbers issue to the point that there isn't a direct counter that requires a reasonably equal amount of effort.
But you made the same point I'm making. I haven't played the game. I've dabbled on RU, but could I tell you what KR nerfed and why? Nope. Not without looking up the patch notes.
Hence I side with the people paid to keep the game functioning and whose best interests to is to the game the most balanced it can be.
Maybe they're wrong. But XLgames would have had a much wider amount of information to make that judgement call.

Let me ask you this. GoI didn't nerf the fisher price ship right? Did the Fisher Price ship get countered in a day? Or was there time for people to complain about the balance of it? If so then clearly the GoI devs with the extra information, and the fact that they're devs (their perspective on the game is probably better for gaging balance anyway); they decided that they wern't changing things.
XLgames changed things. Why? Well you'd have to ask them. But till then I'm going to take their educated and more informed point of view, then assuming they made a mistake.

I haven't heard of XLgames making horrible balancing choices in the past. And have read a few posts regarding PvP in AA being a very quality balanced experience, with many different counters to many different builds.

Hopefully that makes sense. If there is something saying why what they nerfed was unneeded I'd love to read it!

Erhu
04-21-2014, 05:05 PM
I have a lvl 45 melee and lvl 40 magic based characters. Both in blue / purple crafted lvl 40 gear.

The melee can do around 3-4k crit with Phantom blow and has plenty of stuns and knockdowns. I have around 8,6k HP. It takes quite a few skills to bring down an enemy, especially if it's not a mage, so the chance of the fight ending badly even if I attack first is somewhat high.

The mage however can do around 3k crit with Chain lightning and if I do Lightning strike after it I can do up to 9,4k dmg with it. That means I am capable of doing around 14-15k dmg in around 4-5 seconds with 3 spells. After that I still have an insta-cast AOE and 2 insta-cast fireballs. I am capable of killing lvl 50 without giving him a chance to answer. I also managed to kill a group of 3 similarly leveled players. I have never died if I was the first to attack and I usually pick higher-level targets to practice.

I am not saying this to brag, just to illustrate the dmg difference between melee and magic in AA. I can one-shot heavy armor users quite easily, but similarly archers can make a quick process with me if I am not careful. Also after I blow my burst, I don't have much left and everything has a cast-time, while melee characters can just spam Triple blow or the first skill from Calling tree to take me down.

It's really important who attacks first in AA, especially when it comes to bursty classes.

These numbers come from playing on the RU server btw.

Zappygun
04-21-2014, 06:26 PM
-snip-
But till then I'm going to take their educated and more informed point of view, then assuming they made a mistake.
-some more snip-
First off, I'm glad to see that there's still people using their brains here. As of the content of your comment: we both support almost the same arguments, but our conclusions are slightly different. I think it just comes down to personal preference at this point. You prefer to trust the developers' experiences; where I prefer to trust my own. Both are okay, neither are wrong.


-snippitysnap-
That's how it's always been in ArcheAge: the PvP is very bursty. Some people like that, others don't. And this goes doubly so for glass cannons like 'mages'. Once they're out of juice they're as good as dead if they didn't manage to take out all targets.
Personally I think the bursty combat is good, makes it very much an action/reaction speed and skill game.

3py0n
05-16-2014, 04:13 PM
imo in pvp, we're a little underhanded unless you have shadowplay and hide before popping a skill and even then afterwards it's a little hard. 90% of skills require you to stand in place.

I'm not 50 yet but atm running Occultism, magic, songcraft it's hard to pvp...though this is more a pve/solo build.

edit: just read someone up above...well my current spec isn't pvp and I haven't had much experience with pvp in this game atm...so haha maybe I'm just bad at it currently...but if you're on the run and don't have the right setup, you won't stand a chance.

Moine
05-16-2014, 06:22 PM
It really depends on how you define mage.

if you're lumping the entire group of magic damage dealers into one lump, no.
if you're talking about the CC from Witchcraft and how it synergises too well with everything, yes.
if you're talking about backflip sorcerers, yes.