PDA

View Full Version : Daggerspell vs Enigmatist



Physicx
09-19-2015, 08:41 AM
Hey guys me again !

Some question, i realy like this two classes but idk what playing. Someone can help me in 2.0 what use for 1v1, 5v5, mass pvp. Thanks for all !:cool:

Dragonik
09-21-2015, 06:24 PM
Mass PVP enigmatist is amazingly fun imo.

Daggerspell is hands down better in 1v1, and it counters enigmatist 1v1 as well.

Amexy
09-21-2015, 07:13 PM
^ This. I think enigmatist is much more fun and in world pvp and probably better for world pvp, and while enigmatist completely viable in 1v1s, daggerspells are definitely better for 1v1.

Neodoc
09-21-2015, 10:41 PM
Mass PVP enigmatist is amazingly fun imo.

Daggerspell is hands down better in 1v1, and it counters enigmatist 1v1 as well.

honestly enigmatist is the best 1v1 mage spec there is atm.

the difference is staggering because unlike daggerspell and such enigmatist is alot harder to play, you dont just simply hit a few keys to roflstomp ppl. you have to predict things like aoe fear, avoid there sleep (meaning your staying out of range of there witchcraft tree). but its easy cuz enigmatist has insane mobility (i mean it is aura+shadow) it has great burst (sorc) and when geared its one of the most dangerous things in game.

daggerspell is a very basic class, its main focus is to meteor people through the use of sleep/bubble. but sleep is easily counterd when it has a timer b4 it starts. leech on the other hand is instant, so mark+leech is a thing.

mark+leech, (with some nodachi action for extra spice) tracks+overwhelm. then gods whip canceling, = lolwtfded pretty much anyone. its a lil different vs ppl with witchcraft, but unlike daggerspell (which can easily get killed by ppl with anti fear or sleep). the enigmatist has alot of options to kill said target. the ability to kite alone is worth more then anything. cuz you can get rng procs of say 4 ports in a row from just one of your ports. at worst case you have two ports then shadow step to juke em, drop back and one of the best combos in game (mentioned above).

daggerspell requires too much time, and has too much in its way. its main combo can easily be stopd by a decent DR/primeval (which are some of the most popular spec's). enigmiatist can combo a DR just as easily as he could combo a primeval, spellsinger and various other classes without witch.

Hell it can also still do meteor through the use of tracks, freezing earth (sometimes) and freezing arrow. it just has more options, better GCD usage and over all most of its cast are instant, so with good gear its a monster to fight.

people just assume daggerspell's the best because its the easier of the options, but simplicity doesnt mean better, it just means simple. dagger's reliance on a few basic combo's makes it easy to predict. but if you play something less simple, you can do the same kind of stuff as the daggerspell, but with far less chance at being countered (i mean to do a meteor, the daggerspell has to either get sleep on someone, which means they have to fear them first. if not that they have to bubble, and learn how to aim the meteor to hit through bubble. but both can be countered in some way by the most popular specs in game atm).

(also this doesnt even include how op spellsinger would be in 5k+ gs worth of gear plus the really op sorc gems that lower fridged tracks cast time, saw a guy like that the other day, and it casted like .3 to do tracks lol. in that kind of gear, its possible a spellsinger would be the best pvp mage ever)

daays
09-22-2015, 08:15 AM
Would hardly say Engimatist is the best 1v1 mage spec.

It's highly mobile, but in the end so are most other classes. You're going to have to trade hits eventually as Engimatist, and if you don't have the same gear (or playing with a 1.5k+ GS gap like I do) every trade becomes unfavorable. This plays similar to how Archers are, in that you need to be ahead/even with the person on gear AND outplay them in order to win. Would hardly call that the best 1v1 mage spec.

Lamentor is far better, especially now that witchcraft players can be feared. You actually have the burst and setup to kill people and it doesn't rely on trading hits. You'll only lose to geared daggerspells with a 1.5k+ gap and enigmatists with a 2k+ gap (I'm at 3.5k gs) because even with zeal procs you can't eat through their magic resist. That and hexblades, but no one plays hexblade. Everything else is beatable.

Neodoc
09-22-2015, 08:58 AM
Would hardly say Engimatist is the best 1v1 mage spec.

It's highly mobile, but in the end so are most other classes. You're going to have to trade hits eventually as Engimatist, and if you don't have the same gear (or playing with a 1.5k+ GS gap like I do) every trade becomes unfavorable. This plays similar to how Archers are, in that you need to be ahead/even with the person on gear AND outplay them in order to win. Would hardly call that the best 1v1 mage spec.

Lamentor is far better, especially now that witchcraft players can be feared. You actually have the burst and setup to kill people and it doesn't rely on trading hits. You'll only lose to geared daggerspells with a 1.5k+ gap and enigmatists with a 2k+ gap (I'm at 3.5k gs) because even with zeal procs you can't eat through their magic resist. That and hexblades, but no one plays hexblade. Everything else is beatable.


honestly mobiltiy is king, and having a really powerful combo that the majority of players cant prevent is godly.

its true a enigmatist needs alot of gear i already said that. but once u have that gear, they can easily gods whip cancel there way into rank 1. there mobility makes it so they can avoid and kite all of the CC abilites of other mages and can reach/avoid melee/archers. its not just that they have alot of mobiltiy, its that they are THE mobility mage. and of the 3 base dmg trees, the top 2 are battle then sorc.

in a single trip, much like a br+shadow spec, a sorc+shadow spec can easily kill a target through the use of animation canceling. its even better with aura, because of the haste bonus from inspire and nodachi (in world pvp tho id avoid inspire like the fkin plague but for 1v1's its good). things like lamentor have ZERO mobility, and almost no anti cc. they'd be better off playing arcanist then lamentor atleast then they could port away.

songcraft only works with 1 class and its spellsinger (pvpwise) because it heavily relys on sorc's burst, and you cant really burst well without a trip combo or drop back. witchcrafts CC is great, but its also the most planned for and countered CC. everyones trying to find away to prevent fear or prevent sleep. ppl practice for hours to beat witchcraft, they spec to counter it. but you know what they cant counter? mark+leech into trip.

a full enigmaist combo > sorc+witch combo every time. because it does great dmg, its fast (you can do the entire canceling in a single trip if you have 3 inspire and nodachi) and its near impossible to avoid. they can also still meteor, its a win win.

its just that sorc+witch is easy and popular, but every half decent mage knows once your geared you move on to something like enigmatist or spellsinger.

edit: and unless those other ppl are also specing 11 points into aura (or rngesus just hates you that dat) enigmatist has alot more mobility, i usually get atleast 1 reset (on average) when i do the port. my highest was upwards of 6 (not including the 55 port which reset twice).

daays
09-22-2015, 09:24 AM
Well first You don't need anti CC as Lamentor because CC is cut by 50%, which isn't enough time to get hit by meteor combos from other mages, and those 2.5 second stuns/trips are cut to 1.25 second. Which means they're only getting 1 ability before you're back up and facing them.

Second, you have alarm call to prevent stuns/sleep.

Spellsinger is awful compared to Lamentor. It lacks the setup, cast speed reduction, and anti cc in favor of mobility that almost every other class in the arena has anyways.

And why are you bringing nodachi into things? If I' nodachi'd as Lamentor, I would literally kill everyone. I can already kill 5.5k GS leather/plate and bring 5.5k GS mages to 20% (im at 3.5k GS). Nodachi is literally the ultimate cheese item in the game. Anyone can pop it and win.

If you're killing someone in a single trip combo as Engimatist, then you heavily out gear your opponent. In which case you can play any class.

You can move on to Engimatist if you have gear, but Lamentor can already kills players from behind a massive gear disadvantage. On an even fight, it's not even fair. And once you reach that 5k GS mark and have base 44% cast speed, the doors on what you can do are amazing, as you no longer need Startling Strain to reach that mark.

Dragonik
09-22-2015, 09:29 AM
Please Neodoc enlighten me as to what combo Enigmatist have that is uncounterable?

Amexy hit the nail on the head. Enig is much better for Wpvp imo, but that may be that I enjoy the class so much.

Amexy
09-22-2015, 09:37 AM
honestly enigmatist is the best 1v1 mage spec there is atm.

Completely disagree with this. Okay first of all, for daggerspell there is now Auroria Cruel Witchcraft Sleeves which cut the duration of the lassitude delay by half. That is 1 second faster than pre-nerf lassitiude, and means you can fear into sleep again with no problem.

Also let's say you're vs a good darkrunner, you have 2 real options to win, one is to try and outkite him and kill like that, other is to stalkers > leech > frigid > overwhelm > walk over > freezing arrow into deep freeze > meteor. Kiting a good darkrunner is EXTREMELY difficult now with all the gap closers they have, you will more than likely get caught and get killed in a knockdown, and the other way relies on stalkers mark not getting parried, and if it does you will probably lose.

Also any witchcraft class can just walk up and press lassitude on an enigmatist and probably win.

Don't get me wrong, enigmatist is my favorite and my main class, but it is not better than daggerspell in 1v1.

Kowbelle
09-22-2015, 10:17 AM
Spellsinger is awful compared to Lamentor. It lacks the setup, cast speed reduction, and anti cc in favor of mobility that almost every other class in the arena has anyways.


I'm torn between Spellsinger and Lamentor as a new level 55. My biggest worry with going Lamentor is the mana usage. Do you have much of an issue with this?

Physicx
09-22-2015, 10:28 AM
nice players here !
In my conclusion daggerspell better in 1v1 for " easy combos " and Enig in Mpvp is strong about your mobility.

Daggerspell can kill anyone with medium gear if has a nice play with class.
Some have cited with got counter for sleep , but we must agree with high ping in question is much more easily play daggerspell.

daays
09-22-2015, 10:39 AM
I'm torn between Spellsinger and Lamentor as a new level 55. My biggest worry with going Lamentor is the mana usage. Do you have much of an issue with this?

I usually kill/die before running oom. One mossy will do the trick most times though.

Dragonik
09-22-2015, 10:43 AM
Daggerspell can kill someone with high gear with the wombo combo, unless your weapon is extremely subpar or they are stacking mdef hard. Even still fall damage is true damage and isn't negated by armor.

If you hate cheesy combos though like me you won't like the class.

Neoxide
09-22-2015, 10:53 AM
Being a good enigmatist is like god mode. I love the class because it's mostly not cheesy and is probably the highest skill ceiling mage in the game.

It does struggle with higher geared mages and archers however because you can't really kite them and it becomes a matter of damage output. Also tanky and heal hybrid classes can potentially outlast an enigmatist's gap openers and then catch them and kill them. It's insanely good against non-mobile classes although make one mistake kiting and a high-geared DR will eat you alive.

It also has some of the highest burst in the game if you know how to animation cancel. Then there's the deep freeze combo which is kind of cheesy imo but it's not the easiest to pull off and sometimes it is necessary to kill otherwise unkillable targets.

Neodoc
09-22-2015, 06:03 PM
Spellsinger is awful compared to Lamentor. It lacks the setup, cast speed reduction, and anti cc in favor of mobility that almost every other class in the arena has anyways.

And why are you bringing nodachi into things? If I' nodachi'd as Lamentor, I would literally kill everyone. I can already kill 5.5k GS leather/plate and bring 5.5k GS mages to 20% (im at 3.5k GS). Nodachi is literally the ultimate cheese item in the game. Anyone can pop it and win.

spellsinger is one of the top mage specs (overall) in game. classes like lamenator have there ups and downs, but compared to a "real" pvp spec, they get outshined. lamenator is a pve version of daggerspell, its all it is and vs any half decent player its combos are gonna get rektd (and by rekt i mean avoided like the plague). ppl under estimate the usefulness of dropback + flame bolt, or just dropback in general. and the trip combo is far more effective at what a mage needs to do, then witchcraft.

because witchcraft is slow, first you cast fear, then you cast sleep then you cast meteor+circle, then you bubble, then you this...ect ect ect ect ye it does great dmg, and its easy as ♥♥♥♥ to do. but EVERYONE plans for that combo and because it has so many steps it has alot of area's that can be countered (you can songcraft out of the aoe fear+sleep combo most of the time, or even aura+battle out of it), most decent DR's will charge in really fast, then instantly port out to avoid ur aoe fear. they'll trip you using a non stun based trip (the one that activates on root or mark+overwhelm) and then all of ur anti stun means nothing. and you cant avoid it because you went full pve spec...if your a lamenator.


and the reason i bring nodachi into this, is because everyone at the top rates use it. ull never see a DR not pop that thing when its off CD, and any half decent mage will use it as needed. its true with songcraft and nodachi ud do insane damage. but its damage that requires too much setup. daggerspells and those like them, WERE the best but with 55 and the various class changes that have come out. its just not nearly as op (arcanist was really op for a while though).

You may like lamenator, and thats fine but that doesnt make it the best. Killing a few geared ppl in it =/= the best pvp spec. anything sorc+witch auto loses this argument because its so limited and there main burst only works on idiots.


Please Neodoc enlighten me as to what combo Enigmatist have that is uncounterable?

Amexy hit the nail on the head. Enig is much better for Wpvp imo, but that may be that I enjoy the class so much.

mark+leech, tracks+overwhelm (trips obv). then gods whip canceling, it may not kill the target right away. but 9/10 if you do it right, the target is below 40% slowd and ur already throwing flame bolts at em bout ot kill him.

the combo isnt "uncounterable" its less counterable then the one witchcraft classes use. because the only thing in game that can realistically counter trip...is in def tree. and not every player is running around with def tree. but aura, battle archery can all prevent some aspect of the witch combo. and it just so turns out those are some of the most popular trees used by players, battle prevents bubble (and lastitude if used right) archery prevents fear, and aura prevents stun and silence/restrain combos. if a witchcraft user cant use half of his CC...whats the point?

enigmatist doesnt have to rely on leech to trip people (or even to get off tracks with the new gems we can get) it just has to kite and do dmg, and repeat til target is dead. and its super effective.


I'm torn between Spellsinger and Lamentor as a new level 55. My biggest worry with going Lamentor is the mana usage. Do you have much of an issue with this?


both are fine options, but unlike what the guy said spellsinger isnt worse then lamenator. lamenator is a mostly pve spec (outshined by spellsong though). and spellsinger is a pure pvp spec.

in 1v1's a lamenator would prolly have it easier then a spellsinger, but by the end game the spellsinger could still destroy ppl easily.
------------

and finally, alot of people are disagreeing with me that enigmatist is the best for 1v1, and thats fine were all aloud to have our opinion's but most ppl who think sorc+witch is unbeatable, are no offense ment btw, bad. its just how it is. if you cant avoid a very obvious aoe fear, that doesnt mean the class behind is really strong. it just means ur either the wrong spec or plain dumb. (and DS's are easily beaten by most of the popular arena spec's)

daays
09-22-2015, 07:47 PM
I don't think you understand. If a DR charge+3x you as Lamentor, it's only for a second. That's only 1 backstab attack before you're back on your feet facing them and 90% of the time they're going to be in the GCD for a 2nd skill and can't dodge your AoE fear.

But of course they're going to try and bait out the fear. You act like you have to banshee the moment the DR steps to you. You can bait out his dodges just as he can bait out your CC. It comes down to who bites and who makes mistakes. That's a really fair fight if you ask me.

Lamentor is better than Spellsinger now because people aren't fear immune, meaning hard counters like shadowblades are now beatable. Before 2.0, I'd agree Spellsinger was better.

Not saying Engimatist isn't fun, because it is extremely fun to use mobility skills in AA. It's a good spec and does good damage while having high mobility, but if you're playing from behind, those gear gaps just can't be bridged.

Dragonik
09-22-2015, 09:17 PM
You act as if the only CC ability that witchcraft has is banshees. What about hard casted target fear? How hard is it to get a fear off on someone into the wombo combo even if you missed the AOE fear? You state animation cancelling as the thing that makes enigmatist strong, but DS can do it as well albeit not as quickly due to inspire stacks, but still effective as well as consistently getting off their combo without getting RNG'd like enigmatists do.


the combo isnt "uncounterable" its less counterable then the one witchcraft classes use
What about a single parry totally negating an entire combo due to stalkers not landing? Since auramancy is pretty much the bread and butter of a majority of viable arena specs pretty much everyone will just shrug off overwhelm to prevent the trip.

Crazy Mike
09-23-2015, 06:54 AM
daggerspell is better at low gear / same gear enig excels when u out gear them, as do so many other classes