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Soth13
02-05-2016, 12:58 PM
After reading another post about focus gems id like to try something different. Has anyone tried just putting in melee attack gems into there weapon, bow and instrument? Id like to just go all out base damage. I play a blighter by the way.

Rootytooty
02-05-2016, 01:33 PM
Focus should be much better for you as a melee because the stat actually works and all three dodge stats (parry, block, evade) affect all of your attacks. Focus doesn't seem to work correctly with ranged attacks, so archers are talking about using attack gems instead. Mages only use focus if they want easy gear score or use some melee skills.

Dremlock
02-05-2016, 02:19 PM
Good thing about being a 100% magic mage: I can use DPS gems! Focus is for you barbaric melee types.

Soth13
02-05-2016, 03:23 PM
Yeah i know about focus but another post i read was saying around 3000 or so focus only improves hit chance by something like 5%. So i was curious if anyone had tried all melee attack gems and if it made them hit a lot harder?

Miriya
02-05-2016, 05:12 PM
If you have no focus as a melee stick to PvE, everyone has too much block/parry/evade not to have it nowadays.

Myrgatroid
02-05-2016, 05:43 PM
Yeah i know about focus but another post i read was saying around 3000 or so focus only improves hit chance by something like 5%. So i was curious if anyone had tried all melee attack gems and if it made them hit a lot harder?

afaik, it is about 5% avoidance or something like that at about 3k focus. 5% is quite a bit really, especially when you are min/maxing. If anything (well, depending on class), I'd go for the new + crit dmg gems rather than flat attack gems. I'm working on getting the t3 melee crit damage gems into a dqr in lieu of focus, but I wouldn't do it on my mainhand.

TheWiggler
02-05-2016, 08:38 PM
Focus should be much better for you as a melee because the stat actually works and all three dodge stats (parry, block, evade) affect all of your attacks. Focus doesn't seem to work correctly with ranged attacks, so archers are talking about using attack gems instead. Mages only use focus if they want easy gear score or use some melee skills.

False. I have tested 0 focus and full focus (14 gems) and barely noticed a difference. It's all an RNG trick. People will argue otherwise, but that's what I've found. Go flat damage and you would enjoy shredding people

TheWiggler
02-05-2016, 08:38 PM
afaik, it is about 5% avoidance or something like that at about 3k focus. 5% is quite a bit really, especially when you are min/maxing. If anything (well, depending on class), I'd go for the new + crit dmg gems rather than flat attack gems. I'm working on getting the t3 melee crit damage gems into a dqr in lieu of focus, but I wouldn't do it on my mainhand.

5% is nothing. I have 40% parry and spend all day laughing at melees proccing my resets in arenas.

Rootytooty
02-05-2016, 09:19 PM
False. I have tested 0 focus and full focus (14 gems) and barely noticed a difference. It's all an RNG trick. People will argue otherwise, but that's what I've found. Go flat damage and you would enjoy shredding people
post numbers please

Minimany
02-05-2016, 11:19 PM
False. I have tested 0 focus and full focus (14 gems) and barely noticed a difference. It's all an RNG trick. People will argue otherwise, but that's what I've found. Go flat damage and you would enjoy shredding people

So what's socketed in that mythic katana? And what's an 'RNG trick'?

Soth13
02-06-2016, 01:33 AM
So what have you socketed Wriggler instead of focus if you dont mind me asking?.... the melee attack gems. Oh and the melee crit gems what myrgatroid mentioned havent saw them yet are the craftable?

Myrgatroid
02-06-2016, 03:58 PM
So what have you socketed Wriggler instead of focus if you dont mind me asking?.... the melee attack gems. Oh and the melee crit gems what myrgatroid mentioned havent saw them yet are the craftable?

Nope, t3 are 220 loyalty, but the new types also drop from the new dungeon. Unsure if t3 drop from the new dungeon or are loyalty only.

TheWiggler
02-07-2016, 07:40 PM
So what's socketed in that mythic katana? And what's an 'RNG trick'?

RNG trick means, focus is completely RNG, there is no "guaranteed" threshold like block/parry rate. What this means is you can hit all your skills with zero focus and miss all with full focus. Much better to put crit dmg / melee attack and make sure when you do hit, you hit hard. Besides when you learn how to melee, you won't be hitting people frontally anyways (negating the need for focus.. hue)

Sneex
02-08-2016, 03:28 AM
RNG trick means, focus is completely RNG, there is no "guaranteed" threshold like block/parry rate. What this means is you can hit all your skills with zero focus and miss all with full focus. Much better to put crit dmg / melee attack and make sure when you do hit, you hit hard. Besides when you learn how to melee, you won't be hitting people frontally anyways (negating the need for focus.. hue)

mind blown.

Darsy
02-08-2016, 05:06 AM
Nope, t3 are 220 loyalty, but the new types also drop from the new dungeon. Unsure if t3 drop from the new dungeon or are loyalty only.
The t3 drop from the Hard for sure (common (the dungeon is not out yet)) and if you are really lucky from normal mode.

Rootytooty
02-08-2016, 01:29 PM
RNG trick means, focus is completely RNG, there is no "guaranteed" threshold like block/parry rate. What this means is you can hit all your skills with zero focus and miss all with full focus. Much better to put crit dmg / melee attack and make sure when you do hit, you hit hard. Besides when you learn how to melee, you won't be hitting people frontally anyways (negating the need for focus.. hue)
3990 focus = .00288 * 3990 = ~11.5% dodge stat ignore; applies to parry, evasion, and block

if an abolisher without redoubt has 15% parry, 15% base block from shield gems, and 15% evasion (BEST CASE), you will reduce their stats to 3.5% each. The 34.5% of your total hits that were being dodged are now hits.

focus would be worth the LEAST against a dual-wield or two-hand cloth wearer that gems gloves for phsyical defense. 0% block, less than 5% parry, about 10% evasion. 3990 focus should ignore all of it and you should hit every skill, a 15% improvement.

Say you can full-socket both divine+ weapons with 6.0 attack gems. 14 * 6 = 84 dps. 60 is more realistic using 3x 6.0s and 4x refined 3.0s each.

60-84 dps at MUCH higher cost or 15-34% removed from dodge rate depending on your target... if you only hit from the front... if there is no cc...

i think you are right, but for the wrong reason. i'd rather have crit and dps gems instead of focus even as melee if focus is worth .00288% dodge ignore per point. i'd pick focus for 1v1 since they will be most likely to face you and crit/dps gems for raid pvp.

it looks like focus is worth THE LEAST against the people you SHOULD be targeting.

Zephyres
02-08-2016, 08:20 PM
For weapon, the new crit damage gems are best but their price makes it impossible to stack them so they're not realistic for anyone to stack. In practice, focus are the best because of price but flat damage T3s are good if you can afford them, particularly if you have a weaker weapon. The reason focus is good isn't because it adds pure damage but because it helps your CCs hit which is when you put on the big damage (as melee).

For bow and instrument, flat melee attack gems are the best ones I would say until around ~1k attack where armor pen starts getting comparable or better (vs higher gear scores). Armor penetration gems are overrated because of how many people use shields but if you use any armor pen, you might as well max it out because of the way armor works with diminishing returns. If you don't have a very good weapon, stick with flat damage gems on bow and instrument. It's a good time to buy now because the lunarites have dropped by around 300% in price with recent events.

TheWiggler
02-09-2016, 09:16 AM
mind blown.

Lol yeah till date it baffles me why most melee DPS fight frontally when they are literally supposed to wait for that juicy back stab damage.

I generally 100-0 other 6k+ gs melee tanks this way.. They feed me endless tiger strike resets while I wait patiently for that juicy back stab damage :3

Rootytooty
02-09-2016, 02:55 PM
For weapon, the new crit damage gems are best but their price makes it impossible to stack them so they're not realistic for anyone to stack. In practice, focus are the best because of price but flat damage T3s are good if you can afford them, particularly if you have a weaker weapon. The reason focus is good isn't because it adds pure damage but because it helps your CCs hit which is when you put on the big damage (as melee).

For bow and instrument, flat melee attack gems are the best ones I would say until around ~1k attack where armor pen starts getting comparable or better (vs higher gear scores). Armor penetration gems are overrated because of how many people use shields but if you use any armor pen, you might as well max it out because of the way armor works with diminishing returns. If you don't have a very good weapon, stick with flat damage gems on bow and instrument. It's a good time to buy now because the lunarites have dropped by around 300% in price with recent events.
i don't think shields are the only problem

def pot = 1800 pdef or mdef
bulwark = 960-2400 pdef and mdef
defiance = 500 mdef

defense pen is much better in 1v1 than raid pvp

Neth
02-10-2016, 05:46 AM
3990 focus calculation is about right. Your assumption of defensive stats are not. Without redoubt, without first Defense passive proc'd, you're looking at anywhere from mid 20's to high 30's in block, somewhat lower parry value, and often lower evasion value (bar consumables, with them you are looking at around 15, higher quite easily achieved); meaning that your 11.5% reduction still means a frontal hit will be less likely to hit than not. As soon as passives are up, you could stack three, four times the amount of focus even possible to achieve and still not get rid of half of what is possible to stack up.

The main reason to stack full focus gems in a DW setup is to negate the lower values that you often come across on shield-using X/Y/Z specs that aren't stacking STR, running Defense/Battlerage/X as well as making sure you land more hits than you don't on the opponents that are somewhere between these two poles of the spectra.

Focus is worth a lot against the targets you love to target; valuable against the ones you draw against, and useful versus the ones that got you
out stat-stacked, you could say as a simplified rule-of-thumb.

That said, with the advent of the new crit damage gems, most of the high-end geared players that are primarily aiming towards PvP are most likely gonna end up going a mix'd set of these and focus, but as to exact values I can't say for sure what would be optimal. Personal preference, gem slot RNG, or theorycrafted min-maxing will all be in play, as it always will be.

N.

Rimble
02-10-2016, 06:14 AM
RNG trick means, focus is completely RNG, there is no "guaranteed" threshold like block/parry rate. What this means is you can hit all your skills with zero focus and miss all with full focus. Much better to put crit dmg / melee attack and make sure when you do hit, you hit hard. Besides when you learn how to melee, you won't be hitting people frontally anyways (negating the need for focus.. hue)

Actually there are some spreadsheets indicating focus penetrates a flat amount of % for block parry and eva. So it's not like toughness with diminishing returns.

TheWiggler
02-10-2016, 09:09 AM
Actually there are some spreadsheets indicating focus penetrates a flat amount of % for block parry and eva. So it's not like toughness with diminishing returns.

Spreadsheets provided by players lol that's about as accurate as sticking your finger out in the wind.

felixius
02-10-2016, 09:34 AM
RNG trick means, focus is completely RNG, there is no "guaranteed" threshold like block/parry rate. What this means is you can hit all your skills with zero focus and miss all with full focus. Much better to put crit dmg / melee attack and make sure when you do hit, you hit hard. Besides when you learn how to melee, you won't be hitting people frontally anyways (negating the need for focus.. hue)

I think you're confusing the issue. Yes there is some RNG in focus, but it's not with the focus itself, it's with the fact that focus reduces the block/parry/evade chances, which are themselves RNG. So yes, someone with higher focus could get through a DRs parrying less than someone with lower focus in a very small small sample size, but if you extrapolated that to several thousand hits, the guy with higher focus would get parried less. By your logic, you could say the exact same thing about adding to your block/parry/evasion %'s as they're all just rng too.


Spreadsheets provided by players lol that's about as accurate as sticking your finger out in the wind.

Most of what we know about combat mechanics is based on anecdotal tests done by other players. But if that doesn't work for you, Quillidon did some tests for archery + focus, showing that it did in fact reduce the block chance of his target. I'm not sure if he looked at Evade/Parry. Also, the data everyone references is from Chazaster who gave us a lot of our understanding of Toughness and other defense mechanics. His focus testing came very close to matching the alleged KR numbers that i've seen thrown around (apparently it's .0028% evade/parry/block reduction per focus point).

TheWiggler
02-12-2016, 09:55 AM
I think you're confusing the issue. Yes there is some RNG in focus, but it's not with the focus itself, it's with the fact that focus reduces the block/parry/evade chances, which are themselves RNG. So yes, someone with higher focus could get through a DRs parrying less than someone with lower focus in a very small small sample size, but if you extrapolated that to several thousand hits, the guy with higher focus would get parried less. By your logic, you could say the exact same thing about adding to your block/parry/evasion %'s as they're all just rng too.



Most of what we know about combat mechanics is based on anecdotal tests done by other players. But if that doesn't work for you, Quillidon did some tests for archery + focus, showing that it did in fact reduce the block chance of his target. I'm not sure if he looked at Evade/Parry. Also, the data everyone references is from Chazaster who gave us a lot of our understanding of Toughness and other defense mechanics. His focus testing came very close to matching the alleged KR numbers that i've seen thrown around (apparently it's .0028% evade/parry/block reduction per focus point).

Those player/quillodion tests mean ♥♥♥♥all until actual technical details of how focus works is published by XL. Speaking as one of the few NA/EU players tank my enough to face tank high end 6.5k+ gs dark runners of varying focus numbers. Full focus is an illusion.

felixius
02-12-2016, 10:13 AM
Those player/quillodion tests mean ♥♥♥♥all until actual technical details of how focus works is published by XL. Speaking as one of the few NA/EU players tank my enough to face tank high end 6.5k+ gs dark runners of varying focus numbers. Full focus is an illusion.

I sort of agree, but it's all we have. From my personal experience, there's a massive difference between ~1.5k and ~3k focus.

Kav
02-12-2016, 06:13 PM
I sort of agree, but it's all we have. From my personal experience, there's a massive difference between ~1.5k and ~3k focus.

Unless you're an archer.

Archers Unite Inc - HAIYO!!

But Wiggler does bring up a decent point in going full crit damage in exchange for simply backstabbing to avoid the RNG roll altogether.

Calim
02-12-2016, 06:43 PM
What's focus?

Can I please put P/M Defense gems in my SS/Shield/Dagger? Thank you.

Fangorn
06-10-2016, 04:59 AM
yo,
assumed I'm a darkrunner with a good 2H weapon like epic ayanad Longspear.
Now I ask myself what is the best gemming:
I) Full Focus
II) full melee attack
III) few crit dmg and rest with refined melee attack
IV) few crit dmg and rest with Shield def pen gems from prestige
or V) full shield def pen like 3 x 4,3% and 4 x 2,3% ?

Zirconi
06-10-2016, 06:17 AM
yo,
assumed I'm a darkrunner with a good 2H weapon like epic ayanad Longspear.
Now I ask myself what is the best gemming:
I) Full Focus
II) full melee attack
III) few crit dmg and rest with refined melee attack
IV) few crit dmg and rest with Shield def pen gems from prestige
or V) full shield def pen like 3 x 4,3% and 4 x 2,3% ?

As a shield mage, the option I would hate to fight against most would be number 3, 4 is a close 2nd. That is provided you can land a backstab on me.

IMO focus doesn't bring enough to the table.
The shield pen rates and such are unnecessary while you have def pen stacked in your build already (might be more effective against plate users, so could be worth considering.)

I think having massive crits is what you want, because of the natural def pen your 2h and spear passive has already. The fact that tigerstrike can't be blocked is savage.
You do need high agility to land those crits frequently.
If your crit rate is low you might be better off ditching crit damage for full melee.

I could be wrong, but this is my perception as a tanky asf mage.

Fangorn
06-10-2016, 06:57 AM
As a shield mage, the option I would hate to fight against most would be number 3, 4 is a close 2nd. That is provided you can land a backstab on me.

IMO focus doesn't bring enough to the table.
The shield pen rates and such are unnecessary while you have def pen stacked in your build already (might be more effective against plate users, so could be worth considering.)

I think having massive crits is what you want, because of the natural def pen your 2h and spear passive has already. The fact that tigerstrike can't be blocked is savage.
You do need high agility to land those crits frequently.
If your crit rate is low you might be better off ditching crit damage for full melee.

I could be wrong, but this is my perception as a tanky asf mage.

Thank you,
so if I wear full leather crit would be better but when I wear full plate melee attack were the better choice.
why not full shield pen since you can reach about 72% shield pen with 3x 4,3% and 4 x 2,3% gems?
P.s. Melee attack would be about 1111 unbuffed and 1444 buffed

Zirconi
06-10-2016, 02:58 PM
Thank you,
so if I wear full leather crit would be better but when I wear full plate melee attack were the better choice.
why not full shield pen since you can reach about 72% shield pen with 3x 4,3% and 4 x 2,3% gems?
P.s. Melee attack would be about 1111 unbuffed and 1444 buffed

Sorry I just rechecked, and Clash increases the rate at which you penerate defense. My assumption was that you would be increasing the amount of defense penetrated. This changes my opinion a bit.

But, if there are reasons not to go for increasing the defense pen rate -
Not everyone uses a shield;
With the spear proc, you will typically be bypassing a targets defense anyway;
With defense penetration available to you in many other areas -such as gems, puncture, wallop and dream ring - how worth it is it to get that 50% shield pen (800-1200 def on average I suspect)?
Is going for extra defense penetration in any form overkill with the options available to you?


Then you take the reasons for why you would take increased crit damage -

Resilience is high on most players, so you should be looking to increase your crit damage in every avenue available;
With a high crit rate and crit damage, any attacks that successfully land will be more effective than landing many less effective attacks(?)


It also depends on what your gear preferences are -

What gems do you have in your fists? Do you have Intercept (shield defense pen amount)? If so then you should gem Clash (rate) in your weapon to make the most of your decisions.
As we've already mentioned, the viability of crit damage is dependent on your crit rate.


Hope this helps you make a decision - maybe an experienced melee user can come help us xD