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Gentatsu
01-23-2018, 05:44 PM
Feedback on the Trade Pack System as whole

Hello Xlgames, Trion and fellow players,

The following is just my point of view and opinion. Right or wrong thats all that it is. It is meant to be "my own" feedback to XLgames and Trion. Other players are more than welcome to make their own posts in this thread about the topic. If there are posts harassing, trolling, attacking or flaming I ask the Forum Moderators to take appropriate action against such aggressors. Which means, no comments of Your an idiot, your a moron, your a fool, etc, etc, etc. Just make your own post on the topic from your own point of view. Not a quote of a previous post saying, "your wrong", doing so makes 0 progress and wont resolve anything.


now, onto the topic.


the Tier 1 trade packs:
It currently takes 14 specialty packs + 8 fertilizer or plaza pack + 4 Aged Larders turned into the trade centers. This will Generate 2 Tier 2 (east coast: Haranian Cargo, West Coast: Nuian Cargo) Cargo packs. On east coast that is Yny, Villi and Solis. on the East Continent you can turn in any Trade Packs from any of the zones to 1 of the 3 Trade centers in Solis, villi or Yny. On the West Continent that is Cinderstone, Two Crown and Solzreed. As each player turns in their trade pack, the payout % of said same trade pack will drop. The more trade packs of the same type that are turned in the lower the % goes. The only way to increase the Payout % of any pack is to turn in the missing type of trade pack. For example: if there is 1225 total Aged Larders and 550 total Fertilizer / Plaza trade packs and 0 Specialty Packs. then Specialty packs will be needed to be turned in to increase the Payout % of the Larders and Fert/plaza packs. Using this same example, It would take around 35 specialty packs to increase the Larder and Fert/trade packs by 2%. When this happens it will increase the % on the lowest rated Payout first. Which means, if there is 112%, 115%., a bunch at 117% and so on. It will increase the % of the lowest % first, increasing the 112% to 113% then to 114% then to 115% and on and on. So any hopes that any player has increasing a specific pack % back up to 130% is going to take a lot of work and a lot of trade packs. It is also important to note that the Tier 1 Trade packs also have different Payout % depending on where you turn them in. So for example, A Hasla Larder will currently pay the best in Solis, while Windscour larders Pay the best in Yny and Most packs will pay the worst in Villi. Although Villi does have some payouts close to Solis payouts but not all. When turning in Aged Larders the % will drop 2% for every freighter load of 10 larders. So in a nut shell, it is extremely easy to lower a specific aged larder trade pack but a lot of work to attempt to increase the % on the same larder. I dont have any specifics on the Fert and plaza packs as I mainly Craft and turn in Larders and specialty Packs.

The issue as I see it:
From my point of View there is a few things that have created a few issues. First its the ratio's. It only takes 30 Aged Larders of the same type to drop the % for that larder down 6%. But To regain that 6% back they have to turn in enough other types of packs to cover all the Larder %'s not just 1 aged larder type. So if there is 1364 Aged larders in the system its going to take roughly 4,774 Specialty packs and 2,728 Fert/Plaza packs to return the aged Larder %'s back to 130% payout. this system works the same way as if the roles were different like needing larder or fert packs. It is all determined as to if its 4 larders needed to make 2 cargo, 8 fert/plaza to make 2 cargo or 14 specialty to make 2 cargo. The Second and most important factor in this equation is the Human player. While the trade centers offer Higher or lower payouts for tier 1 packs Many players will just unilize the Solis trade center even though trade packs may be worth more elsewhere. While I do understand that players are free to play how they wish to play and turn in the trade packs where they wish to it does create a problem at solis. As many players turn in all there packs at solis due to decent payout regardless of the pack and its mostly all safe route runs to get there. Some players do utilize villi trade center but not all. Yny trade center is in a danger lvling zone so it makes things dangerous when running packs in or out if its not peace. When i asked other players to help craft and run in specialty packs into Solis on kraken most said no because the labor used + the amount of ingredients vs the pack payouts even at 130% was just to low. There are a few players who did their very best to help with my experiment yesterday and to those 2 players (you know who you are) I deeply thank you for your efforts. Between 3 of us players We made close to 1000 specialty packs and turned them all in at solis to attempt to raise the aged larder %'s. I specificaly tracked Hasla and rokhala larders for this experiment. When we started Rokhala larders were down to 112% and 113% Hasla Larders were at 116%. When we 3 players got done turning in the almost 1000 specialty packs Rokhala and Hasla were at a steady 119%. which was also hampered due to players bringing in Windscour larder to solis when they pay way better in yny. Alas though it is there prerogative, even if i might not agree with it.
Therefore it is of my opinion that the 14 specialty + 8 fert/plaza + 4 larder ratio to be changed. I do not know what to suggest as the correct ratio but the fert/plaza seem to stay around 125% to 130% so it seems fine. The larders stay between 102% to 119% which is due to the mass volume of larders turned in, The 14 required specialty packs is where I feel the change needs to be. Either by raising the specialty packs payouts, reducing the labor require or by reducing the amount of mats. But something is needed to be changed to get players to want to run specialty packs because not many players are crafting and turning in specialty packs vs the amount of larders and fer/plaza packs.


The Tier 2 Cargo packs:
These are made from the Tier 1 packs. 14 Specialty + 8 Fert/Plaza packs + 4 larders. When this requirement of 14/8/4 is met it creates 2 tier 2 cargo packs. On the East it is Haranian cargo and is taken to the west continent or Diamond shores. On the West it is Nuian Cargo and is taken to the east continent or Diamond Shores. Each trade center has a MAX Cargo Cap allowed which is 200 cargo. When this happens Players are still welcome to turn in Tier 1 packs but they will never be able to increase any payout %'S for teir 1 packs due to the trade center being at max capacity on said cargo pack. To purchase a Tier Cargo a player needs 75 labor, A cargo cert (purchased in vocation shop for 300) and around 45gold to 55gold sometimes less if there is a lot of Tier 2 cargo packs in stock. The system is set up so that the less T2 cargo there is the more you pay. The more T2 Cargo in stock the less you pay. When you have Purchased your T2 cargo pack you then take it to the opposite continent or Diamond Shores within 30 minutes for max payout %. Once this T2 Cargo Pack is turned in the system immediately adds it to that Continents T3 Cargo pack supply which is then turned in for Charcoal at inland trade npcs or to freedrich island for the essence. I have not done any of the trade system in Auroria and where or what the specifics are for making packs in Auroria. So I hope Someone will post there knowledge of the Auroria trade system with as many specifics as possible. It Also Costs 175 labor to turn in a Tier 2 Cargo pack. I do believe both the purchase and sell price for all cargo packs is altered by a players Commerce profession level. I do not know what the gold payouts is for running T2 cargo packs So I do hope someone posts that information for east, west and auroria.

The only Issue as I see it:
The Current and only issue I see with the T2 cargo pack system is the max capacity of 200. I have only seen the Kraken trade centers on the east continent reach 200 cargo twice. Its not the 200 limit im exacty having an issue with its the part that while its at 200 any T1 packs turned in during this time has 0 effect on increasing any Trade payout %'s, but you can still lower the payout %'s with great ease. This i feel needs to be addressed and changed.


The Tier 3 Cargo Packs:
These Tier 3 Cargo Packs are generated when players bring them across the ocean and turn them in. On the east continent That would be A Nuian T3 cargo pack purchased for 75 labor, a Cargo Cert and some gold. Like the T2 cargo packs, it also has a 30 minute timer. The longer you wait the less you get as a payment due to cargo pack degradation. It also takes 175 Labor to turn in the cargo pack, which on the east continent needs to be in Falcorth, Arcum Iris or Peri. This well get you 20 to 23 charcoal stabilizer i believe. I have not done the T3 cargo packs in Auroria so I do not know the amount of charcoal 1 would get up there. I hope someone will add that info to this thread..


The Issues as I see it:
I feel there is a couple issues with the T3 cargo packs. First is, the family daily quest. It requires the purchase of a T3 cargo pack and turned in to complete the quest. While i do agree with many players that this is causing players to buy mass amounts of T3 cargo and storing them on plots just for the daily quest turn in. Many players are asking for the family quest daily to be removed. They feel it would increase the amount T3 cargo at the trade centers awaiting purchase. I do NOT agree with that sentiment. I Purchase T3 cargo as I see them and I turn them in within the 30 minutes. Recent changes to the cargo packs has had 0 effect on the cargo system. Because there is such a HUGE demand for charcoal right now it isnt even funny. There fore I am against the removal of Family Cargo quest daily. The second part of the issue is the amount of charcoal as payment when turning in the T3 cargo. If you do the family daily quest you get a guaranteed 20 charcoal which is why this quest is so appealing and helpful to PVE players and the 20 charcoal reward is fine in my opinion. The t3 cargo packs on east can get you 20 to 23 charcoal at max % if turned in within 30 minutes. This needs to be increased in my opinion. As the amount of charcoal needed and is in such a huge demand. By increasing the amount of charcoal from 20 to 23 to a higher amount like 40 to 43 it still would not be the same amounts we got under the old original trade system which i could gt 80 charcoal per pack back then. Then adjust the auroria T3 payouts higher as this is a risk vs reward system and it needs to remain as such. By increasing the amount of charcoal payout it would and a HUGE incentive for players to buy and turn the packs in immediately rather than stock pile them on a plot for doing the daily family cargo quest.



This has been my feedback and opinion on the trade system. Others are welcome to add there own feedback on how they see it. Please refrain from quoting another's post to insult or troll them. I want this to be a healthy discussion for Trion and XLgames and not a flame fest.


Thank you

Ollolol
01-24-2018, 07:35 AM
Regarding T3 packs.

I agree that the charcoal payout should be doubled.

The price of charcoal is holding much of the crafting system hostage and artificially holding down the demand for many items used in crafting. The problem can not be solved by adding other charcoal inputs into the economy (ex. charcoal event) because that will make the pack prices for T3 packs no longer worth the risk and effort of running T3 packs.

Instead, they need to double the payouts of T3 packs to cut the value of charcoal in half. This would increase the demand on all other items used in crafting recipes that require charcoal and effectively balance the economy.

Charcoal should be in the 2-3g range; not the 4g range.

The other way to solve the problem is the reduce the charcoal cost of all recipes across the board by half.

I don't see how anyone can think there isn't a problem when you consider Ayanad weaponsmithing scrolls are routinely selling for prices that make ayanad scrap prices going into those scrolls 3g or so per scrap. That is a symptom of a major problem.

I don't run T3 packs but I like to do a fair bit of crafting and the prices of charcoal have made that impractical.

Meridian
01-24-2018, 07:44 AM
I would also either put the T2 cargo cost back where it was or increase the payout. After the price increase to buy cargo, the profit is not worth the risk.

Focslain
01-24-2018, 07:45 AM
Excellent run down of the system, little better on the paragraph breaks, but awesome work here.

Few things to add to your suggestions

T1 - As for trade post usage, the capital post (Austura/Two Crowns) is mostly used to to the safety and access to the merchant gallon. The center posts (Villi/Solz) are safe but don't have safe transport, making them less of a decent drop off point since getting cargo out can be tricky. The PvP posts (Yny/Cinderstone) you are correct and in the next update Xl added in a change that increase the turn in price by almost 50% if the zones are in War. Hopefully increasing the temptation to run in a few packs for higher profits.

As for ratio... dropping the amount of standard specialites would be nice, maybe to 10 but not below 8. As a side note, on Conviction we have a Fert issue in that there is way too many of them in the post (swap your Kraken % of larders and fert). So yeah, no change in the ratio of fert/larders really needed.

T2 - Considering I have never seen a post above 100 cargo (highest on personal record is 48), there was suppose to be a system message as well as a bonus discount to the purchase price of the cargo. Have you seen this or niced a sudden drop in the purchase price in cargo when it hit near full?

T3 - Increasing the pay out of the cargo is not going to stop or even curb the amount of t3 lost to the family quest. Mostly due to the fact that yes the quest is a flat reward but it also doesn't count to the drop in pay out and it's an instant return. Plus the fact that the condition doesn't matter is the bigger issue.

As a suggestion maybe make it so only high or standard profits work for the quest. At least then they'll have to turn in the cargo that day and it could curb the family alt issue.

We also have a new pack coming in that is made from loot dropped by the new shadow revolt mobs. Going to have to see how those work.

Snerdles
01-24-2018, 12:11 PM
I don't see the issue you are seeing with aged packs. I took a look around some servers to see the turn in values and it does seem like Austera does pile up with packs sometimes but here is a list of what I found on aged pack turn in values:


Retribution: 124%
Eanna (Solz, not Austera since i had no east toon there): 126%, 118% for ferts
Shatigon: 121%
Prophecy: 116% (2 types), but most above 120%. I probably grabbed this just after someone turned in those aged packs.

Kraken: 109%, 110% for ferts So many aged packs it's crazy. (23 types of aged packs under 120%)
Kyrios: 130% (normal zone and gilda packs are piling up, not aged)
Conviction: 124%, 123 for ferts
Reckoning: 1 was 116 (arcum of all places), the rest 122%+. Again, probably just after a recent turn in.

Since Kraken is the only outlier that has a significant amount of aged packs piling up in Austera it really doesn't scream out that there is a systemic issue with the whole crafted pack trade system but only that there is a very localized issue on Kraken and only for the Austera turn in (since if you look elsewhere things are pretty normal).

Maybe Kraken just doesn't understand that normal specialty and gilda packs make more money from safe zones than the aged packs from those same areas.

As for the T2 cargo and T3 cargo this all centers around the family quest. You say you will run charcoal based cargo if the family quest is there or not... but you don't seem to notice that the only reason you can run them at decent turn in values is that barely anyone else turns them in using anything but the family quest which doesn't affect the turn in value. Otherwise you would be getting 17... 16... 15 charcoal per pack and at some point you would give up because you realize it's just not worth it below about 18 at current charcoal prices.

Two very simple things need to happen to the cargo system to make it instantly better. The first is that the trade info window needs to be able to show you both the ocean cargo turn in values and the charcoal turn in values at all of the trade posts. Being able to see when it's not a good time to turn in cargo is essential for people to leaving T3 cargo in the trade post for the prices to drop.

The second thing is that the family quest should work just like the farm quest but for the normal specialty packs. You craft the specialty pack and then carry it on your back near the trader and the quest completes to give you your vocation and then anyone can turn in the pack. This would make all the alt armies out there put to use generating cargo for others rather than hoarding it all on land.

Snerdles
01-24-2018, 12:25 PM
T2 - Considering I have never seen a post above 100 cargo (highest on personal record is 48), there was suppose to be a system message as well as a bonus discount to the purchase price of the cargo. Have you seen this or niced a sudden drop in the purchase price in cargo when it hit near full?

There are a couple of systems in place in 4.0 that weren't there before and Trion has claimed the sale system is still in place but that only kicks in when the towers are full or near full of cargo.

As for the turn in value for gold of cargo there is now a mechanic in place where it doesn't take the same number of cargo to drop the payout value the same percentage depending on how many packs are in stock. All the other specialties (like normal, Gilda, fert, aged... etc) take 4 packs to drop the payout amount 1% and the payout amount drops according to the 130% is just the 100% value * 1.3 and it's as simple as that. For cargo this is different. For instance, if there are zero cargo in stock and you sell 6 cargo to the tower the payout value remains at 130%, at 7 the payout value will drop to 129%. However, if there was already 90 cargo in stock and you sold only 5 the payout demand percentage would drop from 92% down to 89%. This seems to be fairly linear through the gold payout values for cargo from the data I have so far, each percentage drops the payout value by 0.493 gold and the number of packs needed to drop the percentage seems to get smaller the whole way through the stock range.

Where it gets really complicated is the purchase price of cargo, for both ocean based and charcoal land based. The same mechanic applies for the demand percentage as the payout demand percentage in that it drops faster the more cargo is in stock but the demand percentage has nothing to do with the actual cost of the pack, each cargo stock level is priced individually rather than by demand percentage. The amount of difference in the pack price significantly increases until there are around 50 cargo in stock and then drops off and levels out beyond that. This helps ensure that as the stock levels get below 50 the prices stay high to help nudge people in to not running it... but that stupid family quest makes it profitable no matter the price so everyone hoards it anyway.

If you graph a 5 pack stock level price difference moving average the price differences between each pack and the cargo pack before it look like this:

https://i.imgur.com/o7HPUBd.png

So, this graph is showing you the price difference for each pack stock level to the price of the one before it, averaged over the last 5 packs to make it less jerky and squiggly looking.

Gentatsu
01-24-2018, 04:41 PM
I was sent some Auroria info via discord so I am adding it here.

I was informed on discord that the T3 Cargo turned in at Auroria gives 31 charcoal at 130%. That is taking the T3 pack from Diamon Shore trade center to the Golden Ruins Charcoal NPC. It was also pointed out to me that on Kraken as of late Auroria has been at 86% and is steadily staying below 90% due to High Supply. At its current 86% rate I am told you still get 20 charcoal per T3 pack.

Snerdles
01-24-2018, 07:49 PM
I was sent some Auroria info via discord so I am adding it here.

I was informed on discord that the T3 Cargo turned in at Auroria gives 31 charcoal at 130%. That is taking the T3 pack from Diamon Shore trade center to the Golden Ruins Charcoal NPC. It was also pointed out to me that on Kraken as of late Auroria has been at 86% and is steadily staying below 90% due to High Supply. At its current 86% rate I am told you still get 20 charcoal per T3 pack.

This seems about right. You can see Omen (Q Q) taking merchant ships from any port that piles up with cargo up in that direction all the time. Go sit an alt in Solzreed for a few hours and just watch the sheer number of crafted packs and the number of cargo going out of there all day long. It's kind of crazy.

Ollolol
01-25-2018, 06:47 AM
I wish they would redesign the system to be less obnoxious and complex. Typically this system hasn't effected me much because someone on my server was running cargo. Last night no one was running cargo and it just sucked.

The system isn't fun. The system is needlessly complicated. The system sucks.

With the increased pack costs from when this system came in; the payouts need to be in the 120%+ range for it to worth running packs. They need to at the very least adjust the system so the payouts stay high if they want to have pack costs as high as they are (and I think they do).

At 130% turnin prices the system works great. I like the system fine when I can get a reasonable turnin price on my packs without needing to mess with the cargo parts of the system.

Easiest way to fix the problem I had last night would be to add an npc that you can sell packs to at cost at the turnin station to have the packs "run" for you. this NPC would only appear if the turnin prices on packs drop below 120%. The player would still be sacrificing labor in order to get the price per pack back up.

Snerdles
01-25-2018, 06:37 PM
With the increased pack costs from when this system came in; the payouts need to be in the 120%+ range for it to worth running packs. They need to at the very least adjust the system so the payouts stay high if they want to have pack costs as high as they are (and I think they do).

This just simply isn't true. Though the pack mats increased in costs many of the requirements were reduced and also the packs were buffed at the same time by sometimes massive amounts. This made almost every single run profitable with very few that are negative returns. Many of the new runs make well over 10 silver per labor, even for safe zones where that was very difficult to maintain before.

As an example, lets take a look at a common safe zone run in 3.0 compared to today, Falcorth to Solis:

Snowliion yarn from 10.2651 to 15.5158, 51% buff (cost reduced, silver per labor from 5.1 to 15.4)
Apple Tarts from 9.0796 to 14.7768, 62.7% buff (cost increased 39.2%, silver per labor went from 4.8 to 9.6).
Trade House Fert Packs from 11.8099 to 16.9933, 43.8% buff ( cost increased 22%, silver per labor from 8.2 to 13.4)
Fellowship Fert Pack which is now Carrot Cake from 11.5523 to 16.2546, 40.7% buff (cost reduced, silver per labor from negative to 7.4)

All of the larders from there didn't make sense before... and they still don't. Don't run aged packs from Falcorth.

In every single case for packs you would run from there you make WAY more than you did before and the turn in values would have to dip well in to the low 100's before you even broke even. This trend continues across most of the packs from most of the zones, especially in safe zones who saw the largest increases.

jahlon
01-25-2018, 07:37 PM
Cargo should not be able to be stored on land or in silos. Force people to turn them in and keep the cycle moving.

Granted, the player doesn't have to do anything with the charcoal, but it's better than seeing 12,000 worth of charcoal sitting on plots.

Snerdles
01-25-2018, 08:24 PM
Cargo should not be able to be stored on land or in silos. Force people to turn them in and keep the cycle moving.

Granted, the player doesn't have to do anything with the charcoal, but it's better than seeing 12,000 worth of charcoal sitting on plots.

That's the family quest for ya. Bringing the whole thing tumbling down.

Ollolol
01-26-2018, 06:31 AM
This just simply isn't true. Though the pack mats increased in costs many of the requirements were reduced and also the packs were buffed at the same time by sometimes massive amounts. This made almost every single run profitable with very few that are negative returns. Many of the new runs make well over 10 silver per labor, even for safe zones where that was very difficult to maintain before.

As an example, lets take a look at a common safe zone run in 3.0 compared to today, Falcorth to Solis:

Snowliion yarn from 10.2651 to 15.5158, 51% buff (cost reduced, silver per labor from 5.1 to 15.4)
Apple Tarts from 9.0796 to 14.7768, 62.7% buff (cost increased 39.2%, silver per labor went from 4.8 to 9.6).
Trade House Fert Packs from 11.8099 to 16.9933, 43.8% buff ( cost increased 22%, silver per labor from 8.2 to 13.4)
Fellowship Fert Pack which is now Carrot Cake from 11.5523 to 16.2546, 40.7% buff (cost reduced, silver per labor from negative to 7.4)

All of the larders from there didn't make sense before... and they still don't. Don't run aged packs from Falcorth.

In every single case for packs you would run from there you make WAY more than you did before and the turn in values would have to dip well in to the low 100's before you even broke even. This trend continues across most of the packs from most of the zones, especially in safe zones who saw the largest increases.

What I said is based on my perspective. I didn't run packs before 3.0 because they weren't worth my time so the argument that they were less worth my time before the patch doesn't convince me. My comments are based on what I think I should be making with the time I put into it.

What I said about the fix to the trade rate collapsing was based on not understanding what makes the price go down. That fact alone make the argument that the system is too complicated and not documented well enough. I don't even know where you go to get a clear understanding of how the system works. IMO, it is a terrible design that hurts the game. Population numbers before and after the system went in support my claim. The system sucks.

I think I understand how it works now but I also think it is a bad design because it is easy to stall it out. If someone stops running larders for a day it hurts everyone. You can't fix the problem because you would need larders in order to fix the problem which takes 3 days to get set up.

In this case, the fix would be to allow the system to count large stacks of basic packs as a single larder if no one is running larders. That is to say, I think it is really poor design to tie the prices to larders under any circumstances.

Snerdles
01-26-2018, 01:35 PM
What I said is based on my perspective. I didn't run packs before 3.0 because they weren't worth my time so the argument that they were less worth my time before the patch doesn't convince me. My comments are based on what I think I should be making with the time I put into it.

What I said about the fix to the trade rate collapsing was based on not understanding what makes the price go down. That fact alone make the argument that the system is too complicated and not documented well enough. I don't even know where you go to get a clear understanding of how the system works. IMO, it is a terrible design that hurts the game. Population numbers before and after the system went in support my claim. The system sucks.

I think I understand how it works now but I also think it is a bad design because it is easy to stall it out. If someone stops running larders for a day it hurts everyone. You can't fix the problem because you would need larders in order to fix the problem which takes 3 days to get set up.

In this case, the fix would be to allow the system to count large stacks of basic packs as a single larder if no one is running larders. That is to say, I think it is really poor design to tie the prices to larders under any circumstances.

It makes it like an actual trade system. The things that people run you should not run, and the things that peope are not running you should run. It's designed around the concept of all packs are valuable (well... most anyway) at some point and the ones that are MOST valuable are the ones that are in the most demand at the time. This makes it a nice dynamic system that changes based on user activity rather than the static stuff we had previous where you just looked at a spreadheet found the top pack and ignored everything else because there was no point to it existing.

Here's and example. Lets say you have infrastructure down and you like Running Hasla aged packs 24/7 because they give you the most gold of any aged pack on the east that you can run with a freighter or two. Rokhala is technically more, but car runs 5 at a time with only 1 alt account take way to long when you can just run 18 at a time one two freighters you can drive yourself. So you are trucking 18 aged packs at a time.

You are currently making about 19.5 silver per labor in the NA since you craft your own larder and it costs 120 labor to craft, collect, and turn in. That's a pretty good return historically.

Now some crazy person comes along and starts turning in Falcorth aged packs which means your aged packs are dropping in price, with every 4 you turn in your demand percentage drops by 1% and that 19.5 is quickly creeping down to 19, and then 18, and then 17... so you decide you are going to find a different pack in hasla to run. You take a look at Cured meat but it only gets about 15 silver per labor and isn't worth the risk of losing when you can get 12 in a safe zone, you look at fert packs which offer 21 but show the same problem as larders because the more you run the more the value drops since trade posts are packed full of fert packs from all over. You look at the fellowship packs and anuquities but darn about 15 silver per labor again so why bother . . .

But wait! There is a pack that is easy to make, cheap, stays at 130% all day, and offers a good return. Our savior the softened fabric. If you put a value of the Gilda at 1.5g each (which is WAY high currently) then this pack offers 21 silver per labor because it only needs 72 labor to craft and turn in. Yes, while it offers less absolute gold per pack, on a per labor basis it's actually better than aged packs.

. . .

Anyway, enough story time. The point is that this system is much more like an actual trade system where if you understand how it works there is quite literally always a pack to run that makes good money and it's different based on what users are doing.

I do agree. Trion has completely failed in describing to users how the system works. Also, XL does a very terrible job at providing the information needed to users trying to use the system. Just little things like you should be able to go to a trade post and in the production info window at the cargo selller it should show you either how many of each type (continent specialty, merchant specialty or aged specialty) are in the tower . . . If not that, at the very least it should have a little info that says "Currently waiting on: Haranyan Specialties" or something along that line.

Users also need to be able to tell the turn in values for cargo at different locations. There is currently no way to see the charcoal exchanger turn ins at all and having to travel to all the ports just to see their current stock is a huge pain for ocean runs.

One of the major problems with the system is users and lack of understanding of the system. I just happened to be on Retribution at the time and I looked at the Solis tower and you see 12 of each Falcorth honey and Mahadevi honey. Honey in the EU the last time I checked cost 13.4g to make and they are getting under 18g for falc and just under 20g for Mahadevi. That works out to about 4.3 and 6.2 slver per labor respectivly. These are some of the worst possible packs that you can possibly run on the east (basically, only salve from those zones are worse) and now those 24 aged packs need 84 normal or gilda packs to be delivered to get consumed and make cargo so they are clogging up the pricing on other packs.

The rule of thumb I like to give that's nice and easy to remember. If your aged pack is under 28g to turn in, run something else.

I think people just need to understand: Just like through the whole history of the game Safe zone larders are really dumb. Spread the word.

Snerdles
01-30-2018, 06:35 AM
It's unfortunate that this thread is going to be buried in the 'completely ignored' section of the forums. I did think of another way the system could help nudge people toward making more profitable packs and it uses a similar mechanic to the sale system on cargo when the towers are full. At the opposite end if the towers have less than 50 cargo and the tower is waiting on any one category of pack for a certain period of time then it could randomly trigger a price increase sale on purchasing that pack type from people. You would end up seeing something like "The Austera trade port is buying Haranyan Specialties at a 10% higher rate for the next hour", and then if the hour is up and the tower didn't cross the 50 cargo threshold during the sale it would increase to 20% and so on until the stock of cargo at the post goes above the threshold level at some point during the sale.

It seems like there are all these protections in place to help stop cargo being stuck at 200 to ensure the system flows well, but there isn't much at the cargo generation level to help when things get clogged up there.

Ollolol
01-30-2018, 07:14 AM
I get what you're saying about supply and demand. I have three issues though.

1. Only aged packs can fix trade rates if no one is turning in aged packs. This can and does bottleneck the system. There needs to be an instant kind of pack that can count in the aged packs slot.

2. The amount of charcoal per cargo is too low which forces the price too high and collapses the prices of a lot of other mats.

3. The system is unintuitive and poorly documented.

I probably have other issues but these are the three main ones. I'm typically happy when I can just keep running the packs I run. Sometimes the rates collapse.

Snerdles
01-30-2018, 02:34 PM
I get what you're saying about supply and demand. I have three issues though.

1. Only aged packs can fix trade rates if no one is turning in aged packs. This can and does bottleneck the system. There needs to be an instant kind of pack that can count in the aged packs slot.

2. The amount of charcoal per cargo is too low which forces the price too high and collapses the prices of a lot of other mats.

3. The system is unintuitive and poorly documented.

I probably have other issues but these are the three main ones. I'm typically happy when I can just keep running the packs I run. Sometimes the rates collapse.

1. This is the same for any pack. That's the whole point. If the bottle neck was aged packs then it makes it super easy for small groups to control cargo production for times when they want to run cargo. It's actually better for cargo runners if aged packs are the bottle neck. For instance, if villanelle has a ton of normal/gilda packs and fert/fellow packs thne it just takes 5 freighters to make enough cargo to fill a merch with cargo and that chews through 140 basic packs to recover prices for the normal/gilda pack runners. To do the same if there are aged packs and fert/fellow packs in there you need to deliver 140 normal/gilda packs.... someone is probably going to notice that before you get done.

2. This is a symptom of the family quest. If that quest were gone then more cargo would travel to the PVP turn in and Diamond Shores if you could both see what the safe zone turn in value are and the average charcoal generated per cargo would increase as well as the average purchase price of cargo would decrease. The safe zone runs only make sense when you get 19+ charcoal at 4g per charcoal. If you get 19 charcoal and can sell it on the AH for 4g each then you are only making 15 silver per labor. At the current NA value of 3.7g per charcoal if you get 19 and buy the last cargo in the tower you are only making 11 silver per labor... safe zone normal/gilda packs are better than that. The family quest guarantees 20 charcoal, uses a third the labor, doesn't get affected by pack age, and gives you a vocation profit which makes it work out to 63 silver per labor which makes it the best safe guaranteed pack the game has ever seen by far. More cargo staying in the towers longer reduced average purchase price which makes charcoal cheaper overall.

3. I agree... maybe not about the intuitive part but at least about the lack of documentation and info in game. The system drastically needs to be able to show you the turn in values of both ocean cargo and certed cargo for charcoal before you buy them to run them. It also needs an easy way to tell which packs are in demand at a glance. I think more and more people are understanding how it all works though, except maybe Kraken east who still just fill Austera with aged packs for some unknown reason. You can see the charcoal prices are slowly creeping downward over the past week or so.

Kaytee
02-01-2018, 03:49 PM
And one major issue I see is when I buy a freighter worth of packs to turn in for charcoal and get them there and the % is so low that I get less then 20 charcoal at High value why should I turn them in and lose charcoal/ gold? I shouldn't and won't take a loss so I turn around and store them for future family quests. Because getting less at high profit for a cargo pack then for the family quest is just wrong. So to fix this the Cargo packs should NEVER pay less then the family quest. So at high profit and 100% turn in should not be less then 21 charcoal. At higher % then the return would be higher and you wouldn't have anyone hoarding cargo.

But I do not agree that the family quest is the root of the issue. The system is screwed up at tier 1 and it just cascades from there. Not enough reward for the risk at tier 2 since the prices have almost doubled...

Madmonty
02-01-2018, 06:07 PM
Cargo should not be able to be stored on land or in silos. Force people to turn them in and keep the cycle moving.

Granted, the player doesn't have to do anything with the charcoal, but it's better than seeing 12,000 worth of charcoal sitting on plots.

This is not a solution, the moment you "Force" players to react they will respond in various ways not necessarily how you might imagine. Players simply wont buy the packs rather than being forced to hand in for example.

The Family quest is not the problem here, its the reward for handing in the pack normally compared to the return for the Family quest.

Limastra
02-01-2018, 09:09 PM
I think the value of larders should be increased at the traders. I did some quick math the other night and came to the conclusion that people who make larders waste valuable labor and thus receive less profit per labor than those who run specialties. Let's look at the reasons why.

Larders take:
Resources (lemons, honey, milk, hay bales, etc.) that cost more per pack than most of the materials used for specialty packs.
Land, which often must be purchased or built.
Taxes (whether purchased or made it matters not)
Time (3 days)

Do the math for yourself to figure out how you are actually earning per labor.

For those who BUY their own materials:

(Multi-Purpose Aging Larder price Number of spaces for larders on one farm) = A
(Tax for one farm in gold 2) =B Since you can practically get two larder rotations per week.
[(Lemon price 30) + (Milk price 50)] Number of spaces for larders on one farm) = C Change it if you are doing Aged Honey or Aged Salve to the correct ratios.

A + B + C = Amount it costs to make the packs = D

(Amount of larders turned in Gross amount of gold obtained at turn in) = E

E - D = Profit = F

[F (Labor cost for making and turning in Amount of larders turned in)] = G Labor cost varies with proficiency, so please input your own correct labor costs.

Someone please explain to me why I just spent over an hour trying to make this and didn't bother to clean it up. There might be some math mistakes, if so sorry. I thought I would just do something quick, but it turned out that it was more work than anticipated for a tired mind. I don't want to delete this because I put "so much" work into it (I'm lazy). If you see an error, fix it in your own calculations.

After you've done the math, compare it to a regular pack from the same zone, and then to the zones around you. Then if you are still wondering whether it is better to do larders, consider the value of the plot of land on which you are aging these packs. Would it be better to sell the land and use that money elsewhere? If you do grow your own resources, which I don't advise, you'll actually be making even less. The labor that could have been used making more packs, is instead bound up in gathering and farming things that produce less per labor. You may be running so many alts that you don't have the time to spend all the labor running packs, but ask yourself this question: Could I be making more or the same amount with FEWER alts? If yes, then maybe it is time to stop paying for extra Apex you don't need.

Madmonty
02-01-2018, 10:07 PM
Another possible solution is to do away with certified / T3 packs altogether and allow players to either deliver T2 packs to trade post for gold or go to cross continent cargo exchanger for charcoal. Maybe one day I might see a Nuian in Perinor again!!!

Snerdles
02-03-2018, 10:45 AM
Another possible solution is to do away with certified / T3 packs altogether and allow players to either deliver T2 packs to trade post for gold or go to cross continent cargo exchanger for charcoal. Maybe one day I might see a Nuian in Perinor again!!!

People would just shuttle cargo to their alts.

For those who disagree that the family quest is the problem. The ONLY reason to buy cargo to ever buy cargo at or near its highest purchase price is because of the family quest. Currently in NA charcoal is trending way down and is below 3.5g. At 3.44g each (the current AH price) and getting only 20 charcoal at the safe zone trader you are making less than 10 silver per labor, but still make 52 silver per labor for the family quest. This means normal and gilda packs from any safe zone are FAR FAR FAR better than running cargo to safe zones for charcoal.

I would say at that point you should be leaving the cargo in the tower which further reduces it's price and in turn will even out the but the problem is that there is still zero reason to ever leave any cargo at the trade post because the family quest both enables storage and ensures massive profits per labor. Just make more alts and you can have as much charcoal as you need, they don't even need labor just get them to level 30 and log in every day for 20 charcoal each.

If you can't see how that cause increased cargo prices then I don't know how to explain it any simpler.

Limastra is correct about larders being not the best from almost any zone too. For the east whats the best pack on a per labor basis at current AH prices (assuming you are crafting your own larders, and not including taxes on the land)?

Arcum - Gilda Pack
Falcorth - Fert Followed VERY closely by Gilda pack.
Hasla - Fert Pack, Gilda Pack Second . . . Though Honey and Cheese are just 2 and 1 silver per labor less compared to those respectively
Mahadevi - Normal, but really only to Yny since it's no good elsewhere.
Perinoor - Normal, Fert, Gilda
Rokhala - Gilda, Fert . . . Though Honey and Cheese are pretty close at just 1 s/l less
Rookborne - Gilda, Fert
Silent Forest - Gilda, Fert
Solis - Fert, Normal
Sunbite - Fert, Gilda, Normal
Tigerspine - Fert, Normal
Villanelle - Fert, Normal/Gilda basically tied second
Windscour - Gilda, Fert
Yny - Fert, Gilda

In ZERO of the zones on the east are larders best on a per labor basis. The only time they are better is when turn in values are depressed for the other pack runs.

Gilda was assumed to be 1.25g for this list. The actual price is more like 1g or less if you look at most design costs, which makes gilda packs even more worth it if you lower the gilda value estimate.

Enyo
02-04-2018, 10:07 AM
Honestly I have adapted to the new system (aside from being able to find certified in west for fam pack). However, I dearly miss the original trade system and the flexibility it gave us as to where we could turn in packs. This new system is much more restrictive and makes the turn in points much more crowded.

Snerdles
02-04-2018, 02:32 PM
Honestly I have adapted to the new system (aside from being able to find certified in west for fam pack). However, I dearly miss the original trade system and the flexibility it gave us as to where we could turn in packs. This new system is much more restrictive and makes the turn in points much more crowded.

Did you ever really use the other points? I know on the east the vast majority of runs didn't even make sense to do and for land runs there are more available now than there were before. As for ocean runs through the histroy of the game it was basically 'do freedich or you are losing money' and going to freedich for anyone but the one group that owned the server which was a major contributor to the whole 'rich get richer' problems the game has. There were 4 turns ins with only one really making sense (except for Rok/Karkassee aged which could go to any of the mainland ports, so 3 each in that case) and now there are 5 with 5 making sense.

As for cargo you can take it to more places than before for ocean runs. In 3.0 there were literally only 2 packs to run that made good charcoal values and those packs reduced the profits of everything else too obscurity because they were so above and beyond everything else it depressed the other packs value so they weren't worth doing.

People like the gilda traders but all of the mainland turn ins only gave 2-3 gilda per pack and at 4g per gilda that wasn't worth doing. You could just run them for gold and make enough to buy the design you wanted anyway. Only Freedich made sense, so if you weren't one of the strong that owned freedich or camped it then you pretty much didn't get to participate.

Now the system is spread out decently evenly. Safe zone runs can easily make 10-15 silver per labor for normal/gilda packs or fert/fellowship packs (though most aged packs in safe runs make little sense). Mainland Cargo to the opposing mainlands makes about 14 silver per labor if you buy the last in stock pack and turn in under the 30 minute profit window. Safe zone cargo for charcoal also makes about 12 silver per labor (currently, but charcoal prices are dropping rapidly in NA). Each of these fluctuate depending on turn in and input values so sometimes some are better than others and it's all based on user interactions.

PVP zone packs mostly make up in the 20-ish silver per labor range, including charcoal runs which sit at about 21-ish. The pack that is best all depends on what other people are doing at the time just like the others.

So since at any moment you can do almost any of these and get similar returns and you can't just look at a spreadsheet and be spoon fed exactly the one pack that makes sense in every situation the result is everyone hates it and complains they aren't being spoon fed.

Enyo
02-04-2018, 04:02 PM
In the old system i had the option of running Ahnimar or Airain packs to Gweonid or Solzreed for near identical profit. I could run packs from Solis to Falcorth, load up at Falcorth and return to Solis, with no need to use a teleport. If i were feeling lazy i could take my Lillyut packs to Marianople or (even lazier) run them to Dewstone. I really miss taking packs to Sanddeep by jumping my timber off the cliff in Halcyona and driving to the gold trader. The point is there were many more options.

The old oversea trade system allowed for quick vague oversea runs where you could load up packs where there were no alt spies to take to the other continent for charcoal. Now you have a load of alts sitting at the trade outlets waiting for every cargo that comes over and spying on who is leaving with them. Old system made charcoal easy and cheap, thereby making crafting easier and cheaper.

There are a few advantages in the new system being more streamlined, but the original system still had more options and more diversity, and in my opinion, was more suited to the sandbox elements of the game.

Snerdles
02-04-2018, 06:02 PM
In the old system i had the option of running Ahnimar or Airain packs to Gweonid or Solzreed for near identical profit. I could run packs from Solis to Falcorth, load up at Falcorth and return to Solis, with no need to use a teleport. If i were feeling lazy i could take my Lillyut packs to Marianople or (even lazier) run them to Dewstone. I really miss taking packs to Sanddeep by jumping my timber off the cliff in Halcyona and driving to the gold trader. The point is there were many more options.

The old oversea trade system allowed for quick vague oversea runs where you could load up packs where there were no alt spies to take to the other continent for charcoal. Now you have a load of alts sitting at the trade outlets waiting for every cargo that comes over and spying on who is leaving with them. Old system made charcoal easy and cheap, thereby making crafting easier and cheaper.

There are a few advantages in the new system being more streamlined, but the original system still had more options and more diversity, and in my opinion, was more suited to the sandbox elements of the game.

In 3.0 Falcorth to solis made 8 or less silver per labor, and more like 5 for the two specialty bench crafted packs. It was a terrible run. I mostly have east trade routes because I only really trade east, but now Falcorth turns in to both villa and Solis for the same price and makes 13 silver per labor for the gilda pack (assuming 1.25g per gilda), a hair over 10 on the normal pack, and 13.5 for the fert pack. This kind of massive buff was done to almost every zone making nearly every run viable.

In 3.0 for safe zone runs that were over 10 silver per labor were basically nothing. So this is packs taht start in safe zones and stay in safe zones.

3.0:
Arcum: None
Falcorth: None
Mahadevi: None
Tigerspine: None
Silent Forest: 2
Solis: None
Sunbite: 2

Current:
Arcum: 6
Falcorth: 6
Mahadevi: None (Like I posted in the last chart, just yule logs to Yny pretty much)
Tigerspine: 4
Silent Forest: 4
Solis: 2
Sunbite: 8

So that's only the safe zones. Decently profitable safe runs went from 4 to 30. The ones that are actually profitable are not static anymore because it relies on what others are running.

Like right now I happened to have a look at Solzreed on Kraken and there are 128 cargo sitting in the tower waiting to go across the ocean. That means people can pick this up and take it to Villanelle or Solis for 33 silver per labor, Diamond Shores for 38, Ynystere for 36, or freedich for 37.

The second someone who is strong enough to buy it does so then there will be different opportunities. Wherever they land will be cheaper to get charcoal (or, right now, family quest stockpile).

This is vastly different from how it used to be where if you wanted charcoal you literally just ran Rokhala to Cinder or maybe you went to one of the other ports because cinder was tanked.

I do realize that they each have different advantages... but a static system that you just pick the top pack from the spreadsheet vs a dynamic interlinked system that depends on user action to change definitely doesn't sound more 'sandboxy'.

If only the family quest was gone so that it could work... but since there is never a reason to ever leave cargo in the towers to run for charcoal they just get drained instead of the packs getting better and better until they are worth running.

Alex Nenko
02-05-2018, 07:09 AM
I dare to copy in this thread my post which was ignored, probably due to bad English in expaining the idea.
I believe that the discussion in the forum should lead us to some change. This may be XL change or TW change. If we ask for total rework of the system, this is definitely no go. We could propose small change that can be easy implemented and chances are this will be accepted by developers.

So the change is very simple but improve lot of things discussed above in this thread:

if T1 pack is turned in at trade outlet, and the outlet has zero such packs stored and has zero T3 cargo available, then bonus 1 charcoal added to the gold reward.

Example.
I bring TS Grape Jams - 4 packs by car, in Villanelle trade outpost. If there is T3 cargo available, I get my usual 14Gold per pack. If T3 cargo = 0, and if TS Grape Jam count = 0, I get 14 gold + 1 CC for my first turned pack. For the rest of packs I get just 14 gold, because TS Grape Jam count > 0.

So every player will try to turn in packs that have 0 count at trade outlet.
What will be fixed:
1) Players get at least minimum CC reward for regular packs trading
2) Reason to do nonprofitable runs, like larders for short distance (i. e. larders from Mahadevi)
3) Reason to diversificate packs, to carry several different packs at a time
4) Reason to craft T1 which were "killed" by introducing Gilda Stars into craft.
5) Support for beginners which normally carry 1 trade pack - better chances to get bonus CC.

Alex Nenko
02-05-2018, 07:20 AM
It makes it like an actual trade system.
On separate stages (T1, T2 and T3) - yes.
On the system as the whole - sorry, no, and this is the PROBLEM.

Example. Right now all the world have deficit of charcoal. Actual trade system (real life market) would force to increase the production of T1 packs to increase total production of CC. Archeage trade system makes players to abandon T1 packs production and forces to stay at trade outpost and desperately hunt for rare overpriced T3 cargo.

Snerdles
02-05-2018, 10:41 AM
On separate stages (T1, T2 and T3) - yes.
On the system as the whole - sorry, no, and this is the PROBLEM.

Example. Right now all the world have deficit of charcoal. Actual trade system (real life market) would force to increase the production of T1 packs to increase total production of CC. Archeage trade system makes players to abandon T1 packs production and forces to stay at trade outpost and desperately hunt for rare overpriced T3 cargo.

If there is a charcoal deficit, why are charcoal prices dropping, and have been for a few weeks?

Charcoal would be VASTLY cheaper if it weren't for the family quest existing because average purchase price for cargo would be significantly lower.

Snerdles
02-05-2018, 10:43 AM
I dare to copy in this thread my post which was ignored, probably due to bad English in expaining the idea.
I believe that the discussion in the forum should lead us to some change. This may be XL change or TW change. If we ask for total rework of the system, this is definitely no go. We could propose small change that can be easy implemented and chances are this will be accepted by developers.

So the change is very simple but improve lot of things discussed above in this thread:

if T1 pack is turned in at trade outlet, and the outlet has zero such packs stored and has zero T3 cargo available, then bonus 1 charcoal added to the gold reward.

Example.
I bring TS Grape Jams - 4 packs by car, in Villanelle trade outpost. If there is T3 cargo available, I get my usual 14Gold per pack. If T3 cargo = 0, and if TS Grape Jam count = 0, I get 14 gold + 1 CC for my first turned pack. For the rest of packs I get just 14 gold, because TS Grape Jam count > 0.

So every player will try to turn in packs that have 0 count at trade outlet.
What will be fixed:
1) Players get at least minimum CC reward for regular packs trading
2) Reason to do nonprofitable runs, like larders for short distance (i. e. larders from Mahadevi)
3) Reason to diversificate packs, to carry several different packs at a time
4) Reason to craft T1 which were "killed" by introducing Gilda Stars into craft.
5) Support for beginners which normally carry 1 trade pack - better chances to get bonus CC.

Alternatively, they could just change the family quest to be delivery of normal specialties and the entire charcoal/cargo problem is solved.

Treefarmer
02-07-2018, 09:30 AM
OP knows his stuff. From one trader to another. So my reply is "what he said"

I read through the other posts and some good points were made and worth looking at closer

Only one persons posts were so far out there I LOL each time I saw them posting more nonsense (no need to name the obvious)

Enyo
02-09-2018, 09:33 AM
The only advantages in the current trade system over the old one that have been argued is the turn in rates are superior... Umm, they increased turn in's in 3.0, no reason they couldn't just do that again, to make up for doubling seed and sapling prices. A quick poll across the server and most vets will agree that the old system made more sense and was preferable.

Lukealex
02-09-2018, 08:41 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, just OP - not something I typically do, but this isn't a discussion thread, just a "give your feedback" thread, so...my thoughts.

T1 packs: I've said for a long time that they're unbalanced in the payouts and materials required. I realize the payouts got tweaked a bunch when the "new" (current) trade system was added, without getting into extensive data I can't really go over it line by line or anything - so I'll leave it at that. Maybe they're all balanced now, maybe there's some exceptions, I'm not really sure, just pointing it out that it used to be an issue. As for the materials...that also got changed up a lot with the adding of gilda packs and the current trade system, but if, for example, a pack from say Hasla costs you 1g in mats and turns in for 20g and a pack from Perinoor costs you 5g in mats and turns in for 17g, then one or the other is too cheap/too expensive. Maybe that's also been largely fixed.

Either way, both contribute to the problem of Trade Center A always has too many larders because specialty/fert/plaza packs are "worse" to turn in there, whereas Trade Center B always has too many specialty packs and Trade Center C always has too many fert/plaza packs. It's a definite improvement over the old system compared to always doing the exact same thing, but it isn't quite even - it became if you have larders, check A first, you're probably just taking them there unless larder %s at A are really low. It isn't quite an "I have larders, where do I feel like driving to today?" system yet.


T2 packs: I'd imagine others can weigh in on this one much better than myself. The number of T2 packs created daily ties directly to the amount of charcoal that can enter the game daily - if the charcoal supply is too low, then those numbers need to be lowered because for our region they don't work properly. Other than that, make sure payouts and costs and balanced as well.


T3 packs: Gonna be somewhat short on this one too. Not sure if I'm alone on this, but I think the family quest would work better as a bonus - you turn in a T3 pack with the quest active, quest completes and you get an extra 20 or 10 or however many charcoal bonus additional to what the Daru gives you for the pack. Freshness timer applies to the pack, it's just a daily "turn in 1 T3 pack, get a reward of family stuff and X charcoal" quest. People could still hoard I suppose, but they'll be turning in old packs so they'll get a lot less than turning in a fresh pack and getting the bonus.

I also agree that charcoal supply is too low. Not sure that I care exactly how it gets increased, just that it does. If T3 packs were plentiful though, nobody would care if people hoarded them, so.... Also...just like everything else, T3 packs need to be balanced. An extra 10 minutes of driving through conflict zones for 1 extra charcoal isn't balanced - not thinking of anything specific there, just making a point.

Shootwho
02-10-2018, 03:58 AM
Possibly tie the trade centers together? Say specialties get turned in at Austera and fert turned in at Vil...Larders turned in at Yny...they still make a T2 pack. Turn in values could be dif per location but the total turned in contribute to T2/T3 packs being generated?

Treefarmer
02-10-2018, 08:50 AM
I agree the ratio of normal packs required to make a over sea pack could be lowered to 8ish

I agree hoarding charcoal packs on your land to do daily family quests is wrong (But I love family quests)

I love the new trade system over the old one but tweaking can help and my direct thought is this. All tradepacks from all areas need to be worthy to produce to keep the variety flowing and let the % of profits fluctuate to determine what gets made based on demand

However currently the % of profit based on demand is not good enough to keep the flow alive if some regions are excluded from the formula

Example: Trade center is getting low on Larders and the 130% demand is there. Many places are not part of the solution because no one is making Larders for a turn in of less than 20gold at 130% (Falcorth as example) .

Solution: No larders should have a turn in value under 25 gold at 130%. The labor/resources/time involved does not provide any incentive to make for less

Example: Trade center is getting low on regular packs and the 130% demand is there. Many places are not part of the solution if you can make a regular pack in White Arden for the same or better value as Airian Rock which has a 10 minute longer travel time. So like Falcorth , Airian Rock is excluded from the demand solution

Generally speaking most the price points are correct and short distant runs have been improved but don't make them better than a long distant run or you just reversed the crisis and Larders need to be affordable from every province starting with a price point of not less than 25gold at 130%

Every region of the map needs to have all their packs viable relative to other regions and distance should be a key determination in the equation so when you can no longer get 130% for that Larder you will still want to run a regular pack that you can whip up in a fraction of the time

also keep the resources to make packs in check. specialty pack from Mahadevi 60spice & 200 cucumbers ? While Arcum's specialty is 80grain and 40sunflower

Schaapjeblaat
02-10-2018, 05:16 PM
As i see it, the cargo system was good fun until they increased the buy prices. Before the increase, the profit from a pack was roughly the same as the price to buy one, so at 50% pack loss you would still break even. This resulted in a lot more risk being taken which led to much pvp fun.

As it is, the risk is not worth it for the small profit to many, so what happens is people are using safe methods now.

Tier 2 packs are now moved like this:
http://i66.tinypic.com/24ou6ms.jpg

And charcoal is hoarded until peace hits, then moved with alts for the family quest

What needs to be done, is make risky runs more profitable compared to safe runs. So like the OP said make the normal way to move charcoal more profitable compared to the family quest, but also make tier 2 packs more profitable when moved without the use of the safe ship.

Also, too many alts camping the trade centers being used as spy cameras. Kicking anything with a [AFK] tag to the nearest nui would be a good start. This would also combat the alts hoarding packs in haulers for the next peace/safe ship.

Snerdles
02-12-2018, 12:16 PM
I really like this thread. You have people that didn't read it, people that don't seem to know how the systems work, and then people that claim to support the OP but then describe a solution to the exact opposite problem that the OP is complaining about.

The trouble on Kraken is that Solis (and to a lesser extent, Villa and Yny... but not the trade posts on the west) is so piled up with aged packs that it's near impossible to clean them out even with a few thousand normal or gilda packs. People run aged packs from all over the place in massive quantities for some reason on that server where this isn't a problem on any other server or even the west side of Kraken itself.

I took a few screenshots of Kraken's Austera port a little while ago . . . It's really strange:

https://i.imgur.com/WTX2lh9.png

Who the heck is doing things like Windscour Salve to Solis for 20g... the pack costs that much to make, why bother? You can see there is an issue here... but it isn't the trade system. The problem is that people have no idea what packs to run to make gold and cargo.

Siren77
03-14-2018, 03:57 AM
1.) Make the t2 and/or t3 Cargo Packs disappear after two hours from purchase.
2.) Make it impossible to take the t3 pack off your back (like its supposed to be).
3.) Delete the family quest for cargo.

I lost the screenshots, but on Conviction there are 100~120 t3 packs on the ground in Mahadevi and Arcum Iris alone. Yet people say we aren't turning in enough packs to make t2 cargo, or aren't running enough t2 to create t3. No. There is plenty of charcoal. It's just sitting around. And that idea, while charcoal is THE bottleneck in advancement in the game, is appalling.

Ashrahm
03-14-2018, 01:43 PM
I think a Hybrid of the old system and the new one would be best. Allow me to make packs on the East or West and take them to the other side for gold.

Increase the amount of gold for oversea runs and still make cargo generation. This would encourage merchant runs again as they can stop and unload to a port and take cargo back with them to their homeland.

Additionally T2/T3 packs need to be lower in cost. We want to drive people to want to do those run and as of right now there is less incentive.

I would also bump the gold turn in for conflict zones and possibly add a 4th sea side trade port (Bring back Sanddeep!)

Snerdles
03-14-2018, 05:46 PM
I think a Hybrid of the old system and the new one would be best. Allow me to make packs on the East or West and take them to the other side for gold.

Increase the amount of gold for oversea runs and still make cargo generation. This would encourage merchant runs again as they can stop and unload to a port and take cargo back with them to their homeland.

Additionally T2/T3 packs need to be lower in cost. We want to drive people to want to do those run and as of right now there is less incentive.

I would also bump the gold turn in for conflict zones and possibly add a 4th sea side trade port (Bring back Sanddeep!)

How much cheaper do the T2 and T3 cargo need to be? Currently they are priced between something like 12 and 49 gold. I'm not sure how low they can actually get since people buy them all up before they get that low, but I have seen them at 19.7496 at 130 stock where the trade posts, I believe, still hold up to 200.

People buy them at 40+ gold because they are worth running to them. If they weren't worth running then there would be piles of cargo sitting in the towers.

4.5 does actually have a bonus for turning in packs during war according to the Omnom translate patch notes. We will see how it works out in practice, but they way I see it is this is just going to turn in to the dominating group earning more gold than everyone else.

Ashrahm
03-18-2018, 09:23 AM
The general uproar was mostly with Aurorian packs and less on the others. Given that East/West typically get filled up those arent as bad. I would still recommend that the charcoal be lower in cost to encourage people to move them since it is a main source of crafting.