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Tsetsu
04-28-2014, 07:59 PM
This is a proposal for a guild idea I had and would like to start. The idea is to create a democratic guild where all officers are elected and all members have a say. This idea works in the same manner that most democracies work where leaders are elected not assigned. The hope here is to find some founding members to basically write a constitution and implement the first set of members to get everything rolling before the release of the game.

The reason this idea came to me is because of past experiences in guilds where leaders put incompetent people like their friend in charge just because that person is their friend. This leads to a large number of member getting irritated and not enjoying the guild.
I also found this to be an issue when searching for a guild on here. I joined 1 guild already and the entire guild was very centered around the founder. The website had his name in every corner and all funds and decisions where basically centered around him. I never spoke to him because I was told he doesn't usually reply to people which I thought was a great thing for a guild leader to do. I also heard more than 1 time how important this person was and how not to piss off his girlfriend and/or friends which again was not an appealing factor.

The proposal is outlined here in a google doc
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i3fKG7jmpLRF45fxzG6w0t0YW3XKjqQAHOLzOx50jXU/pub

The submission is here if you are wanting to participate in being a founder and help establish things like the initial laws and setup the structure.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1AiMVI3ZVgrBE4J3NxzklPsdAs4rtQcLQL52CBHciev8/viewform

Because there has to be someone to start this I am going to help get things rolling but soon as things are moving I will be subject to the same rules as anyone else and have to get elected like anyone else. My plan is to have the guild started before the release and have the officers elected shortly after release when everyone is in. This is subject to change because as I said I want this to be a democracy and if enough people want to vote officers in prior to release then that is the way it will be.

There is currently not a site because there is no name set for guild yet. Once the guild has it's founders meeting I will purchase domain and setup the site. We will also have a voice chat server but before setting that I would like to see what people want to use, IE teamspeak, ventrillo, mumble, etc...

I plan on doing my first round of replies asap and I am going to setup the founders meeting once I see there are enough people that have applied and responded to me to make the first meeting doable. All people no matter their ranking they apply for will be invited to the first meeting so don't feel I will exclude anyone, that is kind of the reason I formed this is not to exclude people.

Take care

Tsetsu
04-29-2014, 10:04 AM
Answering some questions I have received.

No, this has nothing to do with the democratic party in the US, the guild itself is just a democracy.

The guild name is still not determined, this will be determined when the founders first meet.

There will be a website but I want to wait to see what the guild name will be before it is built.
I am thinking of using something like enjin to build the site.

Elections and election cycles will be determined by the founder but I was thinking either every 4 months or 6 months but we will see how this works best.

Elections can easily be ran from either a forum poll or from an alternate online source. This should not be any issue.

The guild leader position will not have any higher power than anyone else and this will be something that is controlled through the officers. One idea I had is whoever holds office for the longest period of time is set as guild leader and when/if they are replaced they hand it off to the next person who has held the office for the longest time to ensure that someone can't get elected and dissolve the guild.

Finally, I can't answer some things because that will be determined by the members and nothing I say here may be true when everything is set in place.

xReorks
04-29-2014, 11:21 AM
Not gonna work.
Ever.

Human communities aren't made for something as fallacy as democracy concept.
Simply 'cause it doesn't take into account that different persons might have conflictual interests and as such conflictual objectives.
Why would i want take part into something that might just lead me against my interests and principles?

If i'm a better player than the most why do my vote shall be valued the same and not more? why should i put my efforts in service of persons that doesn't want to recognize what i deserve?
Nah,gladly mmo's have their own inner system that reject democracy and their 1=1 sillyness.
Usually good guilds with good leaders prosper while those that aren't able fall apart in a matter of time.
I can tell you the most successful guilds i've been were always more or less dictatorships in where one guy leads,the others follow.
Everytime we handled any system such as voting or engraving freedom to choose members committed multiple errors and damaged the whole guild.
No more.

Anyway i wish you good luck.

ParadigmTG
04-29-2014, 12:00 PM
Not gonna work. Ever. Everytime we handled any system such as voting or engraving freedom to choose members committed multiple errors and damaged the whole guild.
No more. Anyway i wish you good luck.

Sorry, but that's a people failure, not a system failure. It's the quality of the person and the chemistry of the whole that makes something work.

Good luck to the OP on his idea ... I'm sure you'll find like minded players to join you in your endeavor. Cheers.

Tsetsu
04-29-2014, 01:54 PM
Democracies work in many places and where this is a newish concept in a MMO it is not something that is foreign to most people. If you personally don't like this concept that is fine but so far I have had a few really strong responses to this idea and are wanting to try to help make this a reality.

You may prefer a dictatorship, you may prefer to either tell people what to do or be told what to do, you may not like having to prove yourself to hold a position, you may not be someone we are looking to form this sort of guild with. One of the nice things about something like a democratic guild is even if you have a viewpoint like this, at least it is heard and you can try to vote for what you feel works best and what the strongest methods are. If the majority of people want a leader that leads out front in a form of dictatorship it can democratically be put in place and when/if it doesn't work can easily be revoked.

I appreciate the good luck and I have a feeling many have your view on this but time will tell how this works.

Tsetsu
04-29-2014, 01:54 PM
Thank you ParadigmTG :)

Tsetsu
04-29-2014, 02:03 PM
Dictatorship guilds for the win


EDIT: Comment removed because the post was removed from this user

Archaous
04-29-2014, 02:34 PM
Incoming debate on politics >.>

DreadLord Roberts
04-29-2014, 03:16 PM
As an old WOW player I often saw many guilds just as Xreorks described, these where massive guild with upwards of a thousand people and untold resources, achievements etc…. I saw these guild held together by a single charismatic dictator and his cronies with no consent from the vast majority of members who were often to invested in the guild to leave. Far more often the not the charismatic leader drifted away from his guild duties growing less and less active as he wandered to other games, other goals, I saw massive goals disintegrate simply because there was no system in place to cope with this. I saw countless members displaced from their comfortable perches in the guild and forced to cope with finding and integrating themselves into a new guild, a lengthy process at least in WOW often taking a month or more as the best raiding guilds are very difficult to join and access. That tsetsu has chosen to apply the concepts of democracy (the most successful form of government) seems to be the only sensible system for making sure a guild can sustain itself for prolapsed periods of time without putting undue stress on its linchpin to stay or dissolve the guild. Of course democracy is also the most efficient way to govern a large body of people which I believe will set this guild up to be among the most widespread and influential in our server. His proposed system of division of task is also very efficient a incorporating a broad spectrum of players and managing their various, often adverse, interests (though I imagine the crafting section will have a lot of demands placed on them). In short I am very excited to see how this new system plays out and would like to give Tsetu my full support (If its in NA :P).

Piano
04-29-2014, 04:05 PM
I'd love to sign up for this, but being in the UK it all depends on what time I'll have to be online at to be able to effectively communicate with the rest of the guild. I think the proposal is great though, good luck with it!

Alakuu
04-29-2014, 04:09 PM
Not gonna work.
Ever.

Human communities aren't made for something as fallacy as democracy concept.
Simply 'cause it doesn't take into account that different persons might have conflictual interests and as such conflictual objectives.
Why would i want take part into something that might just lead me against my interests and principles?

If i'm a better player than the most why do my vote shall be valued the same and not more? why should i put my efforts in service of persons that doesn't want to recognize what i deserve?
Nah,gladly mmo's have their own inner system that reject democracy and their 1=1 sillyness.
Usually good guilds with good leaders prosper while those that aren't able fall apart in a matter of time.
I can tell you the most successful guilds i've been were always more or less dictatorships in where one guy leads,the others follow.
Everytime we handled any system such as voting or engraving freedom to choose members committed multiple errors and damaged the whole guild.
No more.

Anyway i wish you good luck.

Just to point out. I'm a representative of a 60~player multigaming community. We are a republic, (basically a democracy but everyone votes on almost everything)
This community has been around for roughly 3 years now. And has been doing just fine. If the concept is done correctly it works. It takes lots of preplanning but with very strong framework and members that are truly interested in the concept it works. And works well.

Bartender
04-29-2014, 04:09 PM
oh lord,please god no.

xReorks
04-29-2014, 04:42 PM
Just to point out. I'm a representative of a 60~player multigaming community. We are a republic, (basically a democracy but everyone votes on almost everything)
This community has been around for roughly 3 years now. And has been doing just fine. If the concept is done correctly it works. It takes lots of preplanning but with very strong framework and members that are truly interested in the concept it works. And works well.

Ye i come from L2,i've never seen this model work in any game i played once the numbers started to raise it comes always up to the leader decide the fate of his guild,thats why i'm skeptic,however i've no doubts there's people that can make it work,you're clever but if the other 59's aren't as you,well...you're going to struggle :x
And still 60 is a bearable number,i let you guess the odds if you've to deal with 200+ peoples,in such a system... no way bro. :/

We'd been such a successfull guild,you can imagine,castles,heroes,world bosses,within' an alliance of what...300+ members?
Guess what would've that been with a democratic system in place.
Imho leader should decide,officers organise it and soldiers execute it. :D
Hard when "democratic" system place incompetent officers just 'cuz they sounds funny and soldiers takes moves on their own just because they feel to do so.

Yea,the downside to have a weak minded leader instead of the god-like one we had at such times would've killed us,which nearly happened when one of the most ♥♥♥♥♥♥ed and braindead guy took up having our former leadership quitting.
So the second started to make up votes,questioning clan chat and such,result = the clan almost drawned himself into oblivion.

Thats what i'm saying,that democratic concept can't work 'cause MMO's can't simply go that way,you know,there's such different ways of playing that makes it impossible have an hardcore and a carebear expressing themself over the same matter and having their position worth the same.
At some point the leader should stand and take his decisions,good or bad that those are,not throw the responsabilities upon the others.

That i remember,oh... people twinking to make forum votes,people crying about we warring their friends in other guilds or not,making polls for pvp tactics and other dumbo-dumbo moves that we formerly wouldn't have ever made.
Luckily our real leader returned in short and saved the clan from fading into nothingness....
In my opinion a leader asking the others what to do is a weak leader,somebody that can't truly take responsabilities and have a successful recipe for doing so.
So he share the thing with the others,trying to cripple everybody.
A classic example can be made from bad systems such as the dkp one...we'd completely reject it everytime as it leader duty to decide who gets most valuable things,not players not mathematics systems,but again,this requires good dedicated leaders and players.
Nowadays imho is easier for people to delegate which imho breaks up the atmosphere of a good guild.


@All
Didn't meant to start a flame war or a political discussion i'm sorry if you thought so,was just expressing my experience and saying what i think :D

Tsetsu
04-29-2014, 05:13 PM
I am NA and so far everyone that has posted to the guild is NA so I would suspect it most likely will be a large number of NA but if you are EU you are welcome to at least come to the starting. We may be able to create a section of the guild for EU players.

Tsetsu
04-29-2014, 05:23 PM
Ye i come from L2,i've never seen this model work in any game i played once the numbers started to raise it comes always up to the leader decide the fate of his guild,thats why i'm skeptic,however i've no doubts there's people that can make it work,you're clever but if the other 59's aren't as you,well...you're going to struggle :x
And still 60 is a bearable number,i let you guess the odds if you've to deal with 200+ peoples,in such a system... no way bro. :/

We'd been such a successfull guild,you can imagine,castles,heroes,world bosses,within' an alliance of what...300+ members?
Guess what would've that been with a democratic system in place.
Imho leader should decide,officers organise it and soldiers execute it. :D
Hard when "democratic" system place incompetent officers just 'cuz they sounds funny and soldiers takes moves on their own just because they feel to do so.

Yea,the downside to have a weak minded leader instead of the god-like one we had at such times would've killed us,which nearly happened when one of the most ♥♥♥♥♥♥ed and braindead guy took up having our former leadership quitting.
So the second started to make up votes,questioning clan chat and such,result = the clan almost drawned himself into oblivion.

Thats what i'm saying,that democratic concept can't work 'cause MMO's can't simply go that way,you know,there's such different ways of playing that makes it impossible have an hardcore and a carebear expressing themself over the same matter and having their position worth the same.
At some point the leader should stand and take his decisions,good or bad that those are,not throw the responsabilities upon the others.

That i remember,oh... people twinking to make forum votes,people crying about we warring their friends in other guilds or not,making polls for pvp tactics and other dumbo-dumbo moves that we formerly wouldn't have ever made.
Luckily our real leader returned in short and saved the clan from fading into nothingness....
In my opinion a leader asking the others what to do is a weak leader,somebody that can't truly take responsabilities and have a successful recipe for doing so.
So he share the thing with the others,trying to cripple everybody.
A classic example can be made from bad systems such as the dkp one...we'd completely reject it everytime as it leader duty to decide who gets most valuable things,not players not mathematics systems,but again,this requires good dedicated leaders and players.
Nowadays imho is easier for people to delegate which imho breaks up the atmosphere of a good guild.


@All
Didn't meant to start a flame war or a political discussion i'm sorry if you thought so,was just expressing my experience and saying what i think :D

From your description you are telling me you personally had a bad expereince and that is why this won't work. There are a few things I think that don't agree with your response there....

What you describe is not the same thing I am proposing.

Typically a democracy works better with more members not less because the voting is spread thinner leading to more of a census instead of a few with more power. Alakuu as he mentioned is doing a republic which is better with lower members because the constant need for participation but I think even 300+ members would be fine for a republic.

You are saying that we need leaders, there are leaders but they are just voted into office. They make decisions and vote within them but you just chose who represents you through elections. Baring any external influence like money this is typically a very dependable system and looking at the flaws in places like the US where government is corrupted by influence we can write that in the guild charter to attempt to prevent those type of issues. This also is not a government where some issues are more controversial than game related topics.

I appreciate you clarifying that you are not intending a flame war even though your first post felt like it. This is something I have not seen in play before so criticism I think is a key to making it work as well.

DreadLord Roberts
04-29-2014, 05:25 PM
Personally I believe that democracies are better equipped to handle large influxes of players as they can subdivide into branches such as PVE and PVP and still maintain communication as a guild and mutual cooperation while representing their interests wholeheartedly for their subjects. In a dictatorship the leader would more then likely have a preference and the guild would devolve into a PVE or PVP guild with a small group of players sad in the corner doing their own PVP/PVE thing without support from the leadership. This allows a wide group of players with diverse interests to cooperate without giving up their own goals to some sort of hive mind controlled by a biased guild leader.

Alakuu
04-29-2014, 05:59 PM
Personally I believe that democracies are better equipped to handle large influxes of players as they can subdivide into branches such as PVE and PVP and still maintain communication as a guild and mutual cooperation while representing their interests wholeheartedly for their subjects. In a dictatorship the leader would more then likely have a preference and the guild would devolve into a PVE or PVP guild with a small group of players sad in the corner doing their own PVP/PVE thing without support from the leadership. This allows a wide group of players with diverse interests to cooperate without giving up their own goals to some sort of hive mind controlled by a biased guild leader.

Well said. Its just about getting the systems in place so that the people know how and what to do.
Also if you are by chance some amazing dread pirate leader of a great big gaming company that crowd funded 43million dollars, hi. Probably not you, but what the hay, why not!

DreadLord Roberts
04-29-2014, 06:23 PM
Well said. Its just about getting the systems in place so that the people know how and what to do.
Also if you are by chance some amazing dread pirate leader of a great big gaming company that crowd funded 43million dollars, hi. Probably not you, but what the hay, why not!

Lol I probably should have Googled this name before I took it from the Princess Bride movie thank you for telling me :P. I hope to see you on the server when this guild hopefully comes up. Funnily enough I was going for a pirate theme with this