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Thread: Lets Talk About Larceny and drops (with numbers & time)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotwood View Post
    The arguments about the earnings in professions need to have their qualifying context spelled out first. For example, you need to say "if you spend the same amount of time doing either moneymaking activity," or some guy will tell you how people could just spend 12 hours a day hunting and only open crates. Or you need to say "if both people have the same amount of labor," otherwise some dumb dumb will come back about how he's got 12 alts with labor to burn.

    So let's try that here. If OP spends an hour hunting and only opens the crates, he generates (going by his numbers) 283.5g max at the good silver/labor rate, or 219.6g at the best s/l rate from crates. His rate looks good (37.5s/labor), it didn't use a lot of labor (756), but he doesn't make over 300g in an hour that way. So just hunt more, right? It looks like about 4 hours a day of hunting to blow through his labor if he's patron. But that's a part-time job and assuming he spends no other time in game besides that. If the dude actually wants to play the game for an hour and a half every day doing actual things, he's now looking at archeage as a full-time job. A job where 28 hours a week you mindlessly hit stupid things. Otherwise, your labor is going unused. Inb4 just do another profession, because we're comparing larceny with pack-running.

    So, pack runner guy moves his stuff for 1 hour. That's a merchant ship to gold trader on several servers, so this is where it gets ugly to do the comparison. However, the queen purse example earlier is the highest money made in an hour (for OP anyway), so a merchant ship is a decent comparison. Heck, could even compare a sunken merchant delivery, since those can be found, loaded up on a merch, and brought back in an hour. Safe to say the sunkens average better than what OP made? Safe to say that a merchant run under a variety of conditions can do better than 300g in an hour? Oh snap, could even buy a timber coupe or better and run packs that way for 300g an hour. And all of these options are cheaper than gearing up a toon to hunt at the OP's rates.

    Now sure, 20 packs lifted and turned in from sunkens, at 180k prof. (like OP) is 1680 labor, so it's 'only' around 17.9s/l for 300g, but again, you're beating the OP for money generated in an hour with pack running off of a crappy example. Good thing pack runners have a variety of better options. What does OP have? We just did his best example, which is a wash with a decent packrunner example.


    tl,dr; packrunners are more efficient in almost every way you slice it, unless archeage is your real life profession.
    This is what everyone is trying to ignore. And we all know, that everyone running packs just does it on the main and never ever loads up alts with packs....right? Or does that happen 99% of the time? Farming purses with an alt army? Not likely, so you have no scale. In packs, your scale is as much as your machine can handle..again, you can run as many alt packs via follow as you need - your not farming mobs with 5+ alt accounts..so you lose out on all the scale that makes FTP farming Profitable and why everyone that has land is doing it.

    Yes, I got the note on the noble purses..Thank you. Which also reinforces the point, the best Larceny ROI now has should be done at level 33-40 pace since that is the level of Mobs it drops off. If things were coded correctly on the drop table, this would be on the 50+ level mobs as common sense would dictate. Packs also do not have this issue. You get a return consistent to the effort you put into it - with purses, you only have the option to do it far much longer to get the same return.

    Common sense. Obviously when comparing the 2, one is clearly broken and the other one is reasonably balanced - which is the whole point. To make up this difference you have to play a multiple of times longer to net the same result-and as others have brought up - to gain a 6K+ GS to be able to even farm the mobs fast enough isn't "easier than leveling a farm alt" - The opposite is true..does your alt need 6K GS to run packs? Nope. This is what needs to be fixed. If they re-increase the purse rates to a reasonable loot table - then the alt FTP farming problem becomes less polarizing in the wealth distribution. As is, it is 100% one sided.

    Just a casual glance at 2-3 posts on the front page of this forum you can see several people touting making "2000-3000 gold per day using alts to run packs."..look at the 300 Gold/day post.. Now show me the posts were people are doing this with Larceny. There aren't any? Exactly.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by youtube Jasonwivart View Post
    Now go a head and factor in the cost it take to acquire a merchant ship/ car/ farm carts... larceny doesn't really have any gear requirements, I can farm in full lost garden gear decently in the South costsing me a total of 25g to gear up. And if you really want to be effient all you need is a strong weapon when farming lower level coin purses so say divine anything which is 5000g tops (but again not needed at all). All those vehicles will end up costing you a lot of money to make and will take some time to pay back the initial expenses, especially on fresh start where the gilda alone for the car is about 6
    8000gold. The gilda for merchant is about 3000g
    You won't make anywhere near OP's rates on 25g of gear. His gear is unarguably more expensive than a merchant ship. I presumed he was hunting from a legacy server, you're talking about fresh start.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by NefariousBIG View Post
    Just a casual glance at 2-3 posts on the front page of this forum you can see several people touting making "2000-3000 gold per day using alts to run packs."..look at the 300 Gold/day post.. Now show me the posts were people are doing this with Larceny. There aren't any? Exactly.
    Very few people actually make that much money net per day. On some servers there are guilds that have freedich locked down to make it much easier, but anyone running hauler trains has to do it in safe zones or they would just be losing their packs all the time. So for west this means you get Anhimar with two turn ins at near the same value which can make over 20 silver per labor in some cases... and since hellswamp so reliably gets pushed to peace by cheaters it's pretty much guaranteed to make a killing all the time.

    If you look on the east though at single PVP zone runs that actually cycle you'd have to do Sunbite to Yny at more like 17... but Yny is unreliable at best, so for a true safe zone run you'd have to take them to villanelle for more like 10 silver per labor and only at 130%. To make 3000 gold at 10 silver per labor you need 30000 labor, which is 11 paid accounts... and these rates are only if all of your accounts were at 230k commerce. If they had no commerce you'd be making only a shade over 6 silver per labor to villanelle.

    Plus, it's not like trade runs take no time at all. If you run 11 freighters you tank the turn in value and make significantly less money. In order to burn through 2880 labor on an alt in a freighter you have to make something like 40 packs (at 230k prof), which is 5 runs... at 30 minutes per run you are looking at 2.5 hours and then you'd probably have to spread that out throughout the day if you wanted to actually make a decent return (on east... west effectively gets handed free gold).

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Warhead42 View Post
    Your figure is off by a factor of 10. It's 6.318 silver per labor, not 0.6318 silver per labor. Also, even if your math weren't laughably incorrect, it would not be "sub-0.6s/labor" as you proclaim since 0.6318 is higher than 0.6.
    Underrated reply right here lol; that whole outrage and argument people have been discussing for the last couple pages is based on an egregious math error LOL.

    222 gold is 22,200 silver for your 3500 labor.... Not 2,220 silver, lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by NefariousBIG View Post
    I got my alts to max farming in 1 week - that is far easier. The issue here Dalarme is that all Larceny options are currently bad ones..it should have at least 1 viable niche?
    OH and lets not forget this one too! This was another fun little claim; Got your alts to max farming in "1 week" did you?

    Wow, 230k LABOR spent for EACH ALT in ONE WEEK huh? ....even though labor regen is only something like ~22k a week?

    Boy, you must have spent THOUSANDS on labor pots to make it "so easy"!!! :3c

    .......

    .....but really maybe crank down the hyperbole and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ a few notches, yeah?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dps View Post
    Underrated reply right here lol; the whole outrage and argument people have been discussing for the last couple pages is based on an egregious math error LOL.
    You're knocking part of one guy's rationale and generalizing it to discount everyone else's matching opinion that they've arrived at through different rationale (aka fallacy fallacy, no typo there). How about my post?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aired View Post
    Hello folks,

    So today I continued my experiment in the life of larceny. My focus being on three things, first how fast can you burn daily labor, secondly what is the silver to labor ratio for opening purses and the various crates. Lastly, how much gold can you make per hour?

    My observation is that larceny is completely backward, but you can still make great money nevertheless.

    So let's look at the numbers from WORST to BEST.
    Just wanted to report in my own Larceny stuff.
    I'm farming at War times on Diamond Shores, usually finding 65 average~ Prince's Crates per hour.
    I'm now at 230k Larceny, which means 12 Labor per Crate.

    Usually i get one Powder per 5 Crates average (4 if everything works great, 6 if i have bad luck).

    So, 1 Hour of me farming there yields me:
    13 Mysterious Garden Powder
    30-35ish~ Trees/Brazers (15-17 Gold if sold to NPC)
    for an amount of 780 Labor.

    Now, usually i can sell the Garden Powder between 19-20g on Auction House. Let's say i recive 18g after fees.

    234g for the powders, 16g for the trash items = 250g, 1 hour, 780 labor.

    Get's me to about 32 silver/l.

    You regenerate 2880 Labor per day, if you got Labor reg clothes + Bed you can push this up to 3280 (150 Bed, 250 clothes).
    You can also buy Stipend, which gives you another 1000 per day.

    So, if you got time to waste and want to farm crates you could for example farm up 356 Crates per day (about 5,5 hours for me, lol, not gonna do that everyday tho), which would result in average of 71 Mysterious Garden Powder (1278 Gold) and various trash items (about 100g total).

    Let's not forget that Mobs also drop around 1 Silver in Wartime at Diamond Shore. Despite that not amounting to much, it is still something. Plus we get the chance for Metallic Aurorian Crates.

    Thanks for your detailed post here, way too many people saying that Larceny is ♥♥♥♥. Pretty much the best prof out there right now. I dont know anyone that could achieve similar gold results with any other.

  7. #37
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    @Aired, thanks for the response! That one was on me as expected, I assumed the videos were just the purses being opened and didn't bother to watch them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traciatim View Post
    snip
    Your Anhimar argument is getting tired. I haven't noticed it being "reliably pushed" on my server since about a week after 3.0 came out when whoever it was posted about it and Celestrata replied to reaffirm that Trion would punish those who did that. I don't know whether the people on my server doing it decided to stop before getting in trouble, rearranged their lives to start doing it in OCE times or something only, or if they got in trouble for it, but that said, if it's happening on your server report them to Trion, and if it's scheduled PvP not cheaters that requires actual east players, so convince your fellow easterners either to say no, or just buy yourself some land in halcy or even hs/sanddeep and do some cross continent runs for yourself.

    I'll agree that that 2-3k number is either an exaggeration or a high end outlier number than only hardcare multiboxers with complex setups potentially on multiple, probably fairly dead servers. Or they're part of a pretty crazy zerg with a bunch of friends who guard their alt train for free, but regardless. Even as an outlier/exaggeration, how does that compare the outliers/exaggerated numbers for larceny? Yesterday I heard someone say 15 s/l at best for Airain to Cinder, so it looks like if hellswamp isn't being pushed on your server east actually has it slightly better or it's at the least pretty even.

    Anyway, the outlier argument brings us back to alt scaling, which is the real question here. I'm not going to guess at the average number of alts per player on the servers, but after 2 alts any comparison between larceny and trading becomes unequal in scale. Let me explain.

    I'm assuming your larceny person has two alts, lets assume he has 6k+ gs for his revenant build (unlikely, odds are he's melee build, so an extra 6k+ gs armor set compared to the cost of some freighters, I don't feel like going into it so lets just pretend that both hypothetical people we're comparing here swiped or already recouped their investment or whatever), he puts his two alts in a party and they afk nearby auto rolling away and all merrily. Lets assume he has more gs than Aired or gets luckier with drops, and it takes him exactly 1 hour to get a day's labor worth of stuff to open for 1 person meaning he probably has to be doing queens as I'd imagine diminishing returns on how fast jesters can be farmed would make cutting 33% of the time required over Aired's numbers fairly difficult. He farms 3 hours, all of his alts and him then open purses afk, we won't count that time, he and his two alts all make 14 s/l.

    Commerce person loads up his two alts, Aired's numbers are for 180k+ larceny so we might as well assume similar for commerce guys' alts in their commerce skill, since we're basically pretending both people are established in their method already they would both have maxed/nearly maxed proficiency. Lets pretend he's east or west and tanking turn ins or whatever, I realize this is debatable, but it wouldn't be too far outside average to assume that he's making 14 s/l as well for himself and his two alts, and probably in less than 3 hours time.

    But, from here on out, this is where serious problems with profit per hour start to appear. Assuming commerce player and larceny player both have 3 hours per day to play, commerce player can get more alts, save up if he doesn't have the gold already, and then be making only 10 s/l or whatever, but make quite a bit more per day. Larceny player can't keep up, as eventually mobs can only be farmed so fast, plus weapon costs go higher than the cost of even 10 freighters.

    Wow, that's a lot of text to say that commerce becomes better than larceny when you puts alts into the equation. I suppose if somehow you were unable to create an alt, larceny would be a better option (unless you have quest gear and a freighter maybe). Granted, we're not trying to make larceny the new best way to make money here either (at least, I'm not). Also, another factor...with commerce you're pretty much magically creating the money, with somewhere around 60-70% of those profit numbers of Aired's being from the crates, most of the larceny money you're getting is from items changing hands on the auction house. Although, and this is slightly off topic...from the looks of things commerce will get some changes in 3.5, so that might change the comparison, though that does nothing to address the issues with larceny itself, which is the actual topic here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dps View Post
    snip
    Oh goody, another person who missed the ENTIRE original post. Hey, I got an idea! Lets all critique Nefarious's 6 hours spent for that number as well, he didn't tell us his gs or build, so lets all assume he farmed for 6 hours there as an archer/healer in soulforged, and tell him he needs to get good, switch classes, and swipe himself some gear too before he can come back and speak in this discussion. Because posting rates of 6 s/l for Lib 3 and 21 s/l for jesters really means that purse farmers have an IQ of less than 10 and are posting that information so you can tell them that they need to adapt and switch to jesters, because they posted those rates to ask all the intelligent people what they should do, because they looked at the numbers and weren't really sure what to do. And I'll freely admit that even 180k to 230k farming in 7 calendar days will require some labor pots, but the context, point, and discussion was is it easier to level farming or larceny, to which he said farming was easier.




    Wait...Silvershadow's post...@Aired, are your princes numbers during wartime? Because if they were, I'm wondering what weapon Silvershadow has. If they weren't, then we can basically double your princes numbers, which makes queens much much worse than princes if you can farm while DS is at war. Princes would then burn labor fastest while making more silver per labor plus all of the other advantages princes have compared to queens.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Silvershadow View Post
    Just wanted to report in my own Larceny stuff.
    I can sell the Garden Powder between 19-20g on Auction House. Let's say i recive 18g after fees.

    WTF? Garden Powder is only 99 silver... Who the hell is paying 18g+ for Powder? Are you kidding?
    So easy to make false statements and pretend everything is super nice...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukealex View Post
    Commerce person loads up his two alts, Aired's numbers are for 180k+ larceny so we might as well assume similar for commerce guys' alts in their commerce skill, since we're basically pretending both people are established in their method already they would both have maxed/nearly maxed proficiency. Lets pretend he's east or west and tanking turn ins or whatever, I realize this is debatable, but it wouldn't be too far outside average to assume that he's making 14 s/l as well for himself and his two alts, and probably in less than 3 hours time.
    Airain rock does turn in close to the Sunbite/Yny amount for fertilizer which does pull in about 14 at 130% at 180k proficiency. I don't do much looking at their other land based runs since I play east. That works out to more like 11.2 on average of a 6 freighter run. Keep in mind you still have to do that 5 times and the return to 130% after a 6 hauler run would take multiple hours. If you did it over a 3 hour period your average return would be FAR less. All of these also assume that zero other people are doing any of the runs you are doing too. You also are at the mercy of cinder peace, in which case MANY other people are also turning in during the same time frame. All of my per labor return also exclude eco-fuel since i usually only use my numbers to compare between runs which all use fuel, where comparing them to different proficiencies it should be included since it's a differing expense.

    On East there are no 14 silver per labor safe zone runs. East doesn't get good safe trade pack routes for gold. The best you can hope for is Sunbite to Villanelle at about 7. If you had a train of 6 freighters (which is insanely hard to manage now that the nee freighter rules are in place) your average turn in would be about 5.6 . . . and WAY less if you did more than 1 run in a row.

    Larceny is a similar to a basic gathering skill. It should be compared to the like of gathering, mining, husbandry, logging. It's vastly superior to pretty much any of these. Why are you not complaining about them too?

    On my server Hellswamp can cycle every day but Yny/cinder are maybe once or twice a week (which means really rare with all the down times).

    All in all though . . . having an argument over whether trade packs or larceny can both pull in 14 silver per labor or not also proves that larceny is far from dead, which is what most people are claiming and I think what the point of Aired posting all this was meant to prove anyway. For normal people with none, one, or even two alts each profession are perfectly fine ways to make gold.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomWodi View Post
    WTF? Garden Powder is only 99 silver... Who the hell is paying 18g+ for Powder? Are you kidding?
    So easy to make false statements and pretend everything is super nice...
    Servers exist outside the fresh start ones.

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