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Thread: 3.5 Archeage Class ratings [As non bias as possible] Refined and for merges.

  1. #21
    Senior Member Nahlem's Avatar
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    Revenant Tier 2? I doubt that..... They have always been Tier 1. The most aoe nuke class. Especially on an offensive build.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nahlem View Post
    Revenant Tier 2? I doubt that..... They have always been Tier 1. The most aoe nuke class. Especially on an offensive build.
    they suck in water tho, thats why they're t2. Tier 1 is reserved for classes that can do awesome in all situations.

    Rev is awesome on land, but subpar in water, cuz of elevation bugs with skills LoS etc.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Rururu's Avatar
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    Meta is determined by what works and what doesn't work, prior to NA Archeage being released, Melees in particular were quite capable of burst down lone, unprotected casters and archers to the point where there wasn't enough room to effectively deal with them, in response to this gameplay, the korean region (Reset guild to be specific) developed a class composition which would stifle this method of gameplay, creating a centralized area which not only killed nearby melees, but insolated itself from external threats, the 'mageball' was a very basic solution to a big problem, but the meta has slowly shifted from the original 'mageball' to more of a 'disruption ball' instead with disruption based classes such as Skullknight and Nightcloak, the traditional reverent-centric mageball is too slow and too vulnerable to outside entities picking them off, the original mageball strategy featured a slow moving group of mages, but by doing this you immediately surrendered the perimeter of the fight and as long as the mageball could be kept from moving with the afformentioned survivability-oriented classes, the traditional mageball would be picked apart by classes such as archers, songmages and lasso-specced DRs.

    Where am i going with this?

    Many of the classes you list are popular in the current meta, they often have a place in endgame pvp as a generic guy who fills that role, the method for your listing the effectiveness of these classes is based upon their strengths vs. their weaknesses, i don't agree with this measure because each of the classes you've listed, even in Tier 1 have a laundry list of obvious weaknesses, especially against one another. A lone darkrunner for instance is weak against any kind of incoming damage whether it be from an Archer, a caster or another DR, this class is simply not very great at taking damage, they are also not very great at dealing damage in specific situations, such as being in the proximity of any disruption oriented class. DR shines at one role: Bursting down single targets on the perimeter before the opposing raidforce can react.

    It is quite obvious that DR has a specific role in a specific section of a fight during raid pvp, outside of that, they are not particularly strong, how then does that make Darkrunner have less weaknesses than someone in a tier below it? Or is it based purely upon the perception that Darkrunner is good because Darkrunner is a more popular pick in the current meta?

    Furthermore, I can tell you right now, as a member of Disaster who has not only seen the evolution of the pvp meta change before my very eyes, but who has helped shape the current meta by which we play today that i don't know where you are coming from with the inclusion of 'Enchantrix', 'Ebonsong' or 'Argent' in your 'Tier 2' listings, these classes either have overwhelmingly glaring deficiencies at executing their designated role or they based upon unproven theory, the 'aoe armor debuff' from the songcraft tree and making this a core part of the pvp meta is based on the expectation that it would be good enough (or sustainable in the first place) in a situation where simply having something else wouldn't be more applicable, think their spot on this list is due is entirely due to the expectation that they would be relevant, though without a guild such as Disaster or Barcode testing it against one another, it would be difficult to judge it's effectiveness.

    Finally, there are alot of classes in T3 which would easily be T1, so long as we admit that tier 1 classes are woefully flawed as well and every class has definitive strengths and weaknesses.

    If you though you'd escape a Celia post without bringing up Blighter, you'd be sorely mistaken.

    Blighter has obvious, glaring weaknesses, namely the fact that any magic damage more potent than the static electricity from touching a door knob tends to be highly fatal, that being said, Blighter is expected to operate in the same general area as much of the physical damage dealers of the opposing raid, to use an analogy, pretend there was a rainforest which had an abundance of Lizards, the Lizards would tend to be predators which feasts on frogs and other lizards of the same species, but there was another kind of lizard, a plate wearing lizard, who evolved to eat other lizards, this particular Lizard had a thicker hide and the other Lizards would have a tough time penetrating the hide and thus, tried to avoid the other lizard as much as they could, this plate lizard wouldn't do very well against polar bears, but there aren't very many polar bears in the rain forest because they would be swarmed by every kind of Lizard, thus, the Plate Lizard becomes the Apex predator in it's region of the world, this is simply one example of mismatches which can be forced, the weaknesses of a particular class is something they might not expect to see based upon where they choose to play on the battlefield.

    Another example is something like a Bloodreaver or Executioner, this particular class is like an invasive species who has an advantage over the original inhabitants because those classes haven't evolved to deal with the unique qualities this species brings, for instance, Executioners have aoe trips and deal physical damage, trips aren't something casters in the middle of the mageball normally encounter and thus, becomes a new control effect that they wouldn't originally have to put up with at all, the fact that they are being tripped and the other side isn't means that their side will have the advantage, this, coupled with the fact that physical damage is highly effective on cloth means that this class should thrive.

    I have no doubt in my mind that i could further refine the current pvp meta if i were given an opportunity to theorycraft it in depth, anyone who would claim that the meta is set in stone is a troglodyte who lacks imagination and willfully ignores the history of NA's meta shift.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rururu View Post
    Meta is determined by what works and what doesn't work, prior to NA Archeage being released, Melees in particular were quite capable of burst down lone, unprotected casters and archers to the point where there wasn't enough room to effectively deal with them, in response to this gameplay, the korean region (Reset guild to be specific) developed a class composition which would stifle this method of gameplay, creating a centralized area which not only killed nearby melees, but insolated itself from external threats, the 'mageball' was a very basic solution to a big problem, but the meta has slowly shifted from the original 'mageball' to more of a 'disruption ball' instead with disruption based classes such as Skullknight and Nightcloak, the traditional reverent-centric mageball is too slow and too vulnerable to outside entities picking them off, the original mageball strategy featured a slow moving group of mages, but by doing this you immediately surrendered the perimeter of the fight and as long as the mageball could be kept from moving with the afformentioned survivability-oriented classes, the traditional mageball would be picked apart by classes such as archers, songmages and lasso-specced DRs.

    Where am i going with this?

    Many of the classes you list are popular in the current meta, they often have a place in endgame pvp as a generic guy who fills that role, the method for your listing the effectiveness of these classes is based upon their strengths vs. their weaknesses, i don't agree with this measure because each of the classes you've listed, even in Tier 1 have a laundry list of obvious weaknesses, especially against one another. A lone darkrunner for instance is weak against any kind of incoming damage whether it be from an Archer, a caster or another DR, this class is simply not very great at taking damage, they are also not very great at dealing damage in specific situations, such as being in the proximity of any disruption oriented class. DR shines at one role: Bursting down single targets on the perimeter before the opposing raidforce can react.

    It is quite obvious that DR has a specific role in a specific section of a fight during raid pvp, outside of that, they are not particularly strong, how then does that make Darkrunner have less weaknesses than someone in a tier below it? Or is it based purely upon the perception that Darkrunner is good because Darkrunner is a more popular pick in the current meta?

    Furthermore, I can tell you right now, as a member of Disaster who has not only seen the evolution of the pvp meta change before my very eyes, but who has helped shape the current meta by which we play today that i don't know where you are coming from with the inclusion of 'Enchantrix', 'Ebonsong' or 'Argent' in your 'Tier 2' listings, these classes either have overwhelmingly glaring deficiencies at executing their designated role or they based upon unproven theory, the 'aoe armor debuff' from the songcraft tree and making this a core part of the pvp meta is based on the expectation that it would be good enough (or sustainable in the first place) in a situation where simply having something else wouldn't be more applicable, think their spot on this list is due is entirely due to the expectation that they would be relevant, though without a guild such as Disaster or Barcode testing it against one another, it would be difficult to judge it's effectiveness.

    Finally, there are alot of classes in T3 which would easily be T1, so long as we admit that tier 1 classes are woefully flawed as well and every class has definitive strengths and weaknesses.

    Blighter has obvious, glaring weaknesses, namely the fact that any magic damage more potent than the static electricity from touching a door knob tends to be highly fatal, that being said, Blighter is expected to operate in the same general area as much of the physical damage dealers of the opposing raid,

    Another example is something like a Bloodreaver or Executioner, this particular class is like an invasive species who has an advantage over the original inhabitants because those classes haven't evolved to deal with the unique qualities this species brings, for instance, Executioners have aoe trips and deal physical damage, trips aren't something casters in the middle of the mageball normally encounter and thus, becomes a new control effect that they wouldn't originally have to put up with at all, the fact that they are being tripped and the other side isn't means that their side will have the advantage, this, coupled with the fact that physical damage is highly effective on cloth means that this class should thrive.

    I have no doubt in my mind that i could further refine the current pvp meta if i were given an opportunity to theorycraft it in depth, anyone who would claim that the meta is set in stone is a troglodyte who lacks imagination and willfully ignores the history of NA's meta shift.
    -trimmed some of ur post-

    First off yes, I agree with you about enchantrix, when I was looking at this class I based most of its ranking off of its preformance in the first month of ancestral skills where it did see some extensive use, even on kyrios. It preformed alright for such an odd class. I saw a lot of potential in it for min maxing its effectiveness, but i'll agree it probably won't go very far. I'll move it down further, probably tier 3 I still believe it has potential.

    About argent though, I believe it encompasses the tier 2 definition very well being either subpar or carrying the raid to an extent.

    Ebonsong is tier 2 because of its preformance in water. Ebonsong has the highest ranged physical dps available currently in the game and is able to pick apart enemy raids in the water, on land its not as good with less options of movement. But in water it is a literal shark of sorts.

    The aoe charm doesn't effect my ratings very much due to its terrible consistency, most times it's a wasted cooldown due to it getting stripped almost instantly by quake antithesis. Which currently is the more used variant of antithesis. If healers were to start using life anti more that'd change things up. But most people want the easier to use option than the better high end option.

    I explained my position on bloodreaver earlier I don't see it doing enough in raids compared to other class types.

    Executioner is to squishy to be inside the ball to throw down its cc, and can get chased down easily by other melee's on the outside.

    And blighter is an ok class, but it doesn't fit into tier 2 and certainly not tier 1 as it can't carry and/or be overpowering in a raid situation, it doesn't do enough.

    Other than that i'll say that you're right about the idea of meta, this list isn't ment to put anything in a permanent setting, more of a what you'll most likely see currently, and what you'll most likely be expected to play. No class is without weaknesses, and I don't base this off of said weaknesses or strengths, I base it on its contribution to a raid, or lack there of. Its hard to tell the two apart sometimes I know but no class is the best class. It takes quite awhile for me to go through and do these types of lists because of the nature of archeage's pvp system. With so many things to look at for each class things will go unnoticed.
    Hell it took me 4 hours to decide where I feel bloodreaver goes, going through video's various skill builds situations etc.

    People will swear by their class till the day the game dies, it doesn't make them right or wrong. All it means is they like said class.

    The meta of the game will always be changing, I try to make it readable for periods of time where very little is happening to change the meta. After merges this list will get an update as a ton of pvp will have happened new things will have been tested and old things will have been phased out. We shall see where it ends up.

  5. #25
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    since you guys are talking about end game pvp.
    There is only one solution what works by 100% and will never loose.
    Get legenday T6 or above greatclubs, epic T6 or above cloths for all raid-member.
    Skill 30% skill vitalism/witchcraft/aura, 30% vita/aura/occu, 20% vita/songcraft/aura, 20% vita/defense/witchcraft
    You will NEVER loose a fight if enemies are not outnumbering you by 200%.

    Talking about metas in brainless zerg pvp is so useless since it's always healing >>> anything... especially since holy-bolt deals dmg additionally.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vr4r3X View Post
    since you guys are talking about end game pvp.
    There is only one solution what works by 100% and will never loose.
    Get legenday T6 or above greatclubs, epic T6 or above cloths for all raid-member.
    Skill 30% skill vitalism/witchcraft/aura, 30% vita/aura/occu, 20% vita/songcraft/aura, 20% vita/defense/witchcraft
    You will NEVER loose a fight if enemies are not outnumbering you by 200%.

    Talking about metas in brainless zerg pvp is so useless since it's always healing >>> anything... especially since holy-bolt deals dmg additionally.
    Before ancestral skills this may have been slightly remotely possible, but with the nerf to ode and the less focus on aoe healing, all it takes is 2 dps to kill someone before heals even land, so a balanced raid will kill a full healer raid every time. No amount of holy bolting and self healing can over take actual dps.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Rururu's Avatar
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    After these leaked patch notes in Korea you should automatically move everything with Battlerage into tier 14.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir1 View Post
    Ebonsong is tier 2 because of its preformance in water. Ebonsong has the highest ranged physical dps available currently in the game and is able to pick apart enemy raids in the water, on land its not as good with less options of movement. But in water it is a literal shark of sorts.

    The aoe charm doesn't effect my ratings very much due to its terrible consistency, most times it's a wasted cooldown due to it getting stripped almost instantly by quake antithesis. Which currently is the more used variant of antithesis. If healers were to start using life anti more that'd change things up. But most people want the easier to use option than the better high end option.
    Ebonsong literally has the same mobility as a spellsinger with double the range, and an instant shackle or fear combo with backdrop for oh crap moments. On land you have far more free mobility options available to you with mounts and the great meme glider of "oh damn I screwed up." Honestly, with the amount of damage zeal brings to the class I see very little reason to go prime in raids unless you have no dedicated peelers for your songcraft damage dealers, or are vastly out geared and out numbered.

  9. #29
    When i see Shroudmaster Wit/Occ/Sdw t5 its obvious this list is ♥♥♥♥

  10. #30
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    Argent T2; how is this anything but a 1v1 class or at best, small group? Doesn't heal, survive or damage well.

    Paladin and Dreambreaker T3, for raid? Considering the classes on T4, these are T5.

    What does Hex Warden (Bat/Wit/Aur) do to get T2? Doesn't look like it does anything that well.

    Nightcloak (Wit/Occ/Aur) T1, I'll take your word. Can't say I've seen this class more than 2-3 times before.

    It seems like a flaw in the rankings to put a probable T1 land class like Revenant into T2 just because AoE doesn't work as well in water. Same concept with Soothsayer I guess.

    Nice to see Ebonsong getting recognition on paper, but Blade Dancer T4? Around the 7-8k GS and proper gear, this will be the highest burst in the game which is needed for geared healers for instance. Can't take an impale like DR and slightly less mobility, but if nothing else, stealth take out high value target or squishy (in 2-3 skills), glider away before the inevitable focus, blackline/songs, repeat. I used to play BD except I rarely used the shadowplay skills because the targets were dead before that...

    Wouldn't argue with Spellsinger/song T1 but this is basically a wasted slot on anyone without an extremely strong weapon, particularly staff. For lower gear scores, it's a wasted raid slot on a mage who could otherwise have invaluable CC. Very conditional gear-based class with big weaknesses/flaws otherwise.
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