View Poll Results: Do you feel Player Nations need to leave the game?

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  • Heck yes!

    93 60.78%
  • Heck no!

    21 13.73%
  • Don't care

    6 3.92%
  • We should just change the system to work more fairly

    33 21.57%
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Thread: Remove Player Nations From NA Archeage

  1. #81
    Senior Member Focslain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graid View Post
    Whatever you think about player nations, honestly, the system is clearly not working. People do not enjoy playing peasant to someone else's feudal lord, people do not enjoy a hopeless, one sided fight with no prospect of success. And that is why they are leaving this game in droves.
    Been thinking on this. I believe the system is not working because it's not being used correctly.

    While we have had a three faction system since the beginning and for the most part the pirate faction was the place to gather for the higher-end players there was a few dis-advantages to it. With the player nation those dis-advantages are removed but for a cost, that of building the nation and maintaining it.

    Now why make a place to have the highest end players gather and form an enemy to all the factions? What reason is there? Unless that was the reason.

    All of the PvE content doesn't need the end-game gear to complete. Yes it makes it easier, but isn't nessecary. The only reason to go after the end-game gear is for PvP, basically to out-gear your oppoenent. So instead of making some boss/dungeon/mob area that needs (as in it's required to complete) the end-game gear why not let the players create thier own end-game mob, eachother.

    In a heavy hero-centric market, making the player a villian is a bit, odd, but for the most part it makes sense in a game that blends it's pve and pvp as much as AA does.

    What then becomes an issue is how with this type of system you are throwing players that are not truelly ready for end-game content, into the end-game content.

    To add insult to injury you are making the end-game content another player. It's one thing when the thing that kicked your butt is an AI mob, at that point you can blame the game for making the situation too hard to handle. Make that thing that kicked your butt a player and all ideas of fairness and possiblity of winning goes out the window as the fight becomes personal. There is another person controling that red that wiped the floor with you and your friends. Not the computer, a living being. Some-one you hoped has some sense of morals and community to the point that they will not attack a defenseless being. But of course they aren't. Which is the problem.

    It's one thing if you are playing a pvp centric game, it's another if your playing one that states that pve is just as important as pvp and most default to pve mode as a result. Maybe we wouldn't have such an issue if the game was advertised as a pvp game first and formost. At least then those that don't want to deal with pvp can avoid it entirely without feeling as if they were tricked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graid View Post
    It makes a significant difference that without player nations, the dominating guilds in power still have some potential use for their original faction, generally do content with them (CR/GR/MM/Halcyona/Aegis/Whalesong etc), and to some degree require at least a little of their support. While I know there have been terrible guilds that have tried to block their own faction's events, it still caused them trouble to do so and was counter-productive in a way that it isn't when they are literally a different faction. As a player nation, they have no real reason to care about what happens to the regular players of other factions at all and have plenty incentive to ruin things for other players.
    Honestly if the dominate guild was in the opposite faction from what ever one is trying to do said event you have the same issue, just that instead of Player Nation the problem is called Faction Inbalance.

    Also the bold part is incorrect, a dominate guild can block their own faction's events and it would have little to no consequences to them.
    Server: Kadum
    Faction: East/West

    Experience colours perception.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Galmidor View Post
    Thunderwing became player nation dominated too. 4 castles for single player nation... Now they will dominate even more.
    I hope they remove player nations completely from the game. Allow pirates to own castles, that's it. Or make player nation have the same disadvantages of pirates.
    It's unlikely Trion will change the dynamics of player nations but if they did I think our wait time would be more than a year.

    In the meantime what about having a refuge for those who are on servers with player nations dominating to the point of depriving a significant amount of content. A refuge server that is like any other Legacy server with the exception player nations aren't possible. This would include transfer ability to players on servers that are affected the most such as Vengeance and Reckoning where the population of harani, nuia and pirates are dwindled to very few because the rest already quit playing due to this problem. People in player nations say they prefer competition over steam rolling lower geared players so they won't miss those in the gear gap transferring to a non player nation server. Given a choice is better than no option while waiting for player nation changes to take place that might never happen. I'd like to see less people quit AA on the servers where it's increasingly problematic so this is not a criticism Trion, this suggestion is an attempt to slow down the loss of your non-whale customers.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Focslain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RNGean View Post
    It's unlikely Trion will change the dynamics of player nations but if they did I think our wait time would be more than a year.

    In the meantime what about having a refuge for those who are on servers with player nations dominating to the point of depriving a significant amount of content. A refuge server that is like any other Legacy server with the exception player nations aren't possible. This would include transfer ability to players on servers that are affected the most such as Vengeance and Reckoning where the population of harani, nuia and pirates are dwindled to very few because the rest already quit playing due to this problem. People in player nations say they prefer competition over steam rolling lower geared players so they won't miss those in the gear gap transferring to a non player nation server. Given a choice is better than no option while waiting for player nation changes to take place that might never happen. I'd like to see less people quit AA on the servers where it's increasingly problematic so this is not a criticism Trion, this suggestion is an attempt to slow down the loss of your non-whale customers.
    Except that will change nothing.

    Even if a server is open without the option for a player nation you will still have a dominate force form and your back to the same thing all over again. Except this time it will be a guild or two doing it instead of a player created faction, so the way it was before player nations were a thing.

    Most fail to understand that if a group of smart, dedicated and driven individuals want to own a server, they will own that server. Regardless of the system in place, what is needed is another group of the same to oppose them. That is the problem.
    Server: Kadum
    Faction: East/West

    Experience colours perception.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Focslain View Post
    Except that will change nothing.

    Even if a server is open without the option for a player nation you will still have a dominate force form and your back to the same thing all over again. Except this time it will be a guild or two doing it instead of a player created faction, so the way it was before player nations were a thing.

    Most fail to understand that if a group of smart, dedicated and driven individuals want to own a server, they will own that server. Regardless of the system in place, what is needed is another group of the same to oppose them. That is the problem.

    "Another group to oppose them" is what's happening on most servers. Some have one dominate PN steam rolling the factions with the top geared players pulled from East and West but most have multiple PN opposing each other and trampling the factions on the side.

    There is post after post in a few threads of people wanting to get rid of PN completely and many of the posters were around 3 years ago. This is because PN dominating a server is not the same as AA prior to PN with a dominate guild or faction. It's been heavily discussed why most players want to go back to pre-PN and I could spend 20 minutes discussing the difference between PN and a dominate faction / guild prior to 2.9 but instead of a long intricate thread I'll simply highlight the obvious difference some players may not remember or realize if they started playing AA after 2.9. A new player can join a faction, they can start as East or West and be included in anything their level allows. Any new player can become a pirate. The casual player with any gear score regardless of how low can participate in events with their faction. No, PN isn't the same as a dominate faction and any one can join a dominate faction without starting out from level 1 being excluded. So many players have left because of PN and almost as many who are still around want to get rid of PN if there isn't going to be an extensive overhaul of the system. At least one non-PN server per NA and EU leaves PN to exist and gives an option to those wanting to play pre-2.9 or will quit like many of their peers, especially where they have been trapped with the steam rolling like on Vengeance and Reckoning with no ability to transfer.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Focslain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RNGean View Post
    "Another group to oppose them" is what's happening on most servers. Some have one dominate PN steam rolling the factions with the top geared players pulled from East and West but most have multiple PN opposing each other and trampling the factions on the side.

    There is post after post in a few threads of people wanting to get rid of PN completely and many of the posters were around 3 years ago. This is because PN dominating a server is not the same as AA prior to PN with a dominate guild or faction. It's been heavily discussed why most players want to go back to pre-PN and I could spend 20 minutes discussing the difference between PN and a dominate faction / guild prior to 2.9 but instead of a long intricate thread I'll simply highlight the obvious difference some players may not remember or realize if they started playing AA after 2.9. A new player can join a faction, they can start as East or West and be included in anything their level allows. Any new player can become a pirate. The casual player with any gear score regardless of how low can participate in events with their faction. No, PN isn't the same as a dominate faction and any one can join a dominate faction without starting out from level 1 being excluded. So many players have left because of PN and almost as many who are still around want to get rid of PN if there isn't going to be an extensive overhaul of the system. At least one non-PN server per NA and EU leaves PN to exist and gives an option to those wanting to play pre-2.9 or will quit like many of their peers, especially where they have been trapped with the steam rolling like on Vengeance and Reckoning with no ability to transfer.
    Actually this is a fallacy, any group can exclude an outsider. It's not hard to just kick an unwanted from a raid and for a group to horde faction events from their own faction. If the new player doesn't get in the good graces of the ruling group, they are excluded.

    Only exception to this is Mistmarrow, in that case you just need to be on the winning side for some medals. You could then tag mobs and towers during the Kudam event to get your quests completed.

    PN is just a distilled version of the prior power groups since they have a limited pool of players they can place into their nation, but at least you can defend yourself and retaliate without fear of jail time.

    The issue of a group controlling a server is as old as the game. Just now there are too few groups that are willing to do what is needed to get to the top now that someone is entrenched there.
    Server: Kadum
    Faction: East/West

    Experience colours perception.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Focslain View Post
    PN are just like the the dominate guilds, so yeah they are going to control the servers much like their prior versions (pirate, faction or guild).

    Difference here is that it's easier to defend against and fight them if you treat them like what they are, an enemy faction. Many of the issues presented in this thread have been the same issues prior to PNs being a thing. Instead of PN it was called the dominate faction or worse a dominate guild.

    The PN was designed to give the end game players a challenge, to separate them from their home faction and have them earn their place in the pvp wilds of the sea and Auroria. The cap was placed after too many switched to PNs in the KR version.

    In our version the cap wasn't enough as we just collectively don't have the backbone for a prolonged fight. Some do but take a guess where they are? In the PN, hell most of them formed the damn things to begin with.

    Honestly having the PNs is better, at least you don't go to jail for defending yourself or your guildmates. While most state that PN not having to purple is a bad thing, it's worse when a dominate guild with half a brain rarely had to purple in the first place. Most of the time it was the people fighting against the dominate guilds that ended up in jail since the smart ones forced their opponents to purple instead. Or shall we bring up the old argument of healers not having to purple to heal those that did?

    Best way to deal with a PN is to deal with them like an enemy faction, of wait, they are.
    Your argument doesn't make sense. Treat player nations like an enemy faction? Blaming the players for not having a backbone? You did not explain how PN is a benefit to the game. Maybe you thought you did, but that is not my problem. The game has no referees and allows same faction PK so how is it better or worse to have PN kill you instead of a dominant guild on your own faction? Because they are their own "Nation" now? A nation that can recruit the best geared players from both factions instead of just one? A nation that can kill with impunity? I don't disagree that the game's design leads to a dominant faction, the part I disagree with is that Player Nations somehow help the game. Things are moving in the wrong direction and servers will continue to get merged.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Focslain's Avatar
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    Going to break this down a little:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegfried View Post
    Your argument doesn't make sense. Treat player nations like an enemy faction? Blaming the players for not having a backbone? You did not explain how PN is a benefit to the game.
    In the basic game design, they limit the player's resources, they aren't suppose to have access to the safe trade routes of the south. Our versions lacks on alts allows them this. Thier money amkers are abyssal and the unprotected areas of the north. Remember that all of Auroria is hostile and only the west side (those without castles) cycle. So even then they only have a limited window of peace.

    It's only due to the lack of competation that makes it easy for them to make more money then most. That and our versions exploiting of alts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegfried View Post
    Maybe you thought you did, but that is not my problem.
    Its both our problems, mine for expecting the reader to know what is going on and you for not seeing past your own experiences. Try thinking outside the box every now and then, you be amazed at what you can learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegfried View Post
    The game has no referees and allows same faction PK so how is it better or worse to have PN kill you instead of a dominant guild on your own faction? Because they are their own "Nation" now? A nation that can recruit the best geared players from both factions instead of just one? A nation that can kill with impunity? I don't disagree that the game's design leads to a dominant faction, the part I disagree with is that Player Nations somehow help the game.
    Honestly they are here to create content. Player Nations are the end-game. I'm not talking about something every-one should strive for, they literally are the end-game. There is no mob, no boss, harder then a group of well organized players. Something most player nations generally have to be, especially in a competative enviroment.

    There is really no reason for crafted gear (obsidian or otherwise) because all the pve content can be done with dungeon gear. Heck the four biggest world bosses can be done with serpentis gear if the group knows the machanics. Levi is more of a test of how good your boat is above that.

    Only reason for crafted gear of the top level is for pvp.
    The player nation is what they rest of the server needs to beat, they are the villians. The amount of hate that gets leveled at player nations is planned. Your suppose to hate the PN, otherwise the game gets boring quick as it has been pointed out that the pve in this game is sub-par. Not realizing that it was on purpose.

    And then people wonder why pve arenas like the naval one coming were made, oh and the thunderwing boss.

    Seems XL had a few interesting ideas that due to the nature of gaming these days didn't work as planned and now they are shifting focus. Just remember, this game turns like a tanker. Slow as balls. Most of the planned and developed additions were planned over a year in advance. So change is going to be slow.

    So until XL turn this into another WoW clone *cough*FFXIV*cough*, just chill and prepare to fight for everything inch of progression you can get. This game was designed to be a hard grind, especially with the guy above you kicking you in the face. The way it was meant to be.
    Server: Kadum
    Faction: East/West

    Experience colours perception.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Focslain View Post
    Actually this is a fallacy, any group can exclude an outsider. It's not hard to just kick an unwanted from a raid and for a group to horde faction events from their own faction. If the new player doesn't get in the good graces of the ruling group, they are excluded.
    It seemed like this person was playing a different Archeage than I'm playing until I noticed they play on Conviction. People that have been playing 2 or 3 years up against a PN is completely different than on Fresh Start servers. Fresh Starts ever they start getting steam rolled and then population killed off that is. Full raids that have enough bodies to afford kicking people? That must be possible on Conviction. PN on Fresh Starts is a different reality. There is no getting kicked from raids where PN have destroyed a server unless some one goes out of their way to troll really hard to get theirself kicked from an event raid. You don't even get kicked from an event raid if you show up as level 35, you go unnoticed and no one cares because it's another body. When there's only 14 people in a raid for CR on a weekday evening at peak playing time, you're not going to get kicked, you won't be excluded, any one and their alt can participate. PN isn't the same as a dominant guild or faction on some servers.

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