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Thread: More ships, And Ship-to-Ship combat

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb More ships, And Ship-to-Ship combat

    Hello All,
    Now I know Trion has a habit of NEVER listening to the player base, I can tell right off the bat because all of the other tabs are Q and A.

    None the less I wanted to post about this.

    Let me start by saying out of all the MMO's that I have played this one has the best open ocean pvp ever. However I believe that there is a fundamental issue with ships and ship classes.

    First off, I dislike how there are only 4* classifications of ships:
    Merchant schooner
    Small warship
    Clipper
    Medium warship

    See my issue? Merchant schooner isn't a class of ship, its a ship on its own. This reoccurs for each kind of ship, ONE medium warship, and its a galleon- A GALLEON, that is wayyy to large (in the game and historically) to be the only ship in this category. This issue continues for Clipper ships aswell.

    It seems like they left room for improvement but stopped.

    I like the 2 kinds of warships: Eznan cutter and Lutesong Junk.
    They each serve a similar purpose and the different designs suit different play styles. However what if there where more. These two would serve the frigate classification of small warship, another was a Man-o-War, and a Carrack.

    As far as schooners go there is the Atlantic, Brig, Caravelle, and Gaff designs. All of these are used for different purposes.

    And there are more then just a galleon, such as a Ship of the Line is another classic big ship with a bunch of cannons.

    Small transport ships, while clippers are great, what if we had ships such as a Ketch or a Sloop.

    Ships need to serve more purposes then to kill a ghost ship and board others to steal packs, they should play a significant roll, with more ship classes then fleet combat may arise, fighting over relic loot.

    I know its a lot of words, but I hope that they expand on the great naval combat that they have, that needs to become more prevalent.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Focslain's Avatar
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    So with the enoan being a medium warship, if you swim around the ruins south of Freedich you'll see wrecks of ships bigger then the enoan. Right now I don't think the sea is honestly big enough to warrant a large ship.

    As for other types, we have yet to receive the turtle ship, which is another medium class and has it's own tactics. Though those tactics are the reason it's been delayed in our version but whatever.

    With the ability to change out equipment allows players to decide the role of the ship. So only the base type is needed. You also forgot about Fishing boats in your class list.

    Example: A guildmate replaced all the cannons on his gallon with crates. This gave him a up armoured merchant he used mostly during abyssal runs. Another removed the tanks from his fishing boat for crates and replaced the fish finder for a radar. He managed to stealth through abyssal as no-one expected for a fishing boat to carry packs.
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    I mean while you can do that, I was referring more to the naval combat implications.

    You can fit attacking ships with crates no doubt but adding in more ships, and more reason to commit to naval battles is what I was after. Right now you basically hunt in a clipper, do ghost ships in a warship and do delphinad ghost ships in a galleon. With no real specialization, there really is not pick-counter meta for beating other ships..

    There should be Honor for doing Ship Kills, and more ships to promote a diverse combat base.

    I dont want ship diversity to be a warship with cannons or packs... I want ship diversity to be in the form of the ships themselves. Right now the sea is a barrier for packs, and place for daily quests. Not an endgame option like pvp or farming. while there are exploration packs, literally no one does those, and the people who do go unchallenged. There is nothing to do in the ocean... Nothing at all

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    Senior Member Focslain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daelimia View Post
    I mean while you can do that, I was referring more to the naval combat implications.

    You can fit attacking ships with crates no doubt but adding in more ships, and more reason to commit to naval battles is what I was after. Right now you basically hunt in a clipper, do ghost ships in a warship and do delphinad ghost ships in a galleon. With no real specialization, there really is not pick-counter meta for beating other ships..
    Actually there is. but it's in the tactics more then the class. A warship can take out a enoan if equipped and crewed correctly. An enoan can hunt merchant ships quite well if, once again, equipped and crewed correctly.

    Heck there are tactics for clippers to take out enoans.

    Plus in the equipment range you have cannons, crates, shields and harpoons. Even in the cannon range you have multiple types. The ships are the frames for which you place these things on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daelimia View Post
    There should be Honor for doing Ship Kills.
    Have to say no to this if only we run into the same issue as the old regrade scroll problem when customized ships first appeared. Which as a reminder: There was a time that when you killed a ship it had a chance to leave a ship regrade scroll as loot. What players were doing was beaching thier clippers for cheap scrolls since sand was easy to come by for those that had aquafarms. So if you got honor for killing a ship we'd had the demolish derbies all over again. Current honor gain for ship combat is fine, you get honor for killing crew, not the ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daelimia View Post
    I dont want ship diversity to be a warship with cannons or packs... I want ship diversity to be in the form of the ships themselves.
    So basically you want different style frames. Not going to lie, be neat to have a frame per race, give the ships some style as long as the stats and hardpoints don't change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daelimia View Post
    Right now the sea is a barrier for packs, and place for daily quests. Not an endgame option like pvp or farming. while there are exploration packs, literally no one does those, and the people who do go unchallenged. There is nothing to do in the ocean... Nothing at all
    What you described is the points of interest that the devs placed in to get people out to sea. You can plunder the trade routes, or run them. As for those that do wrecks, well you can hunt them too, that is why there is a area wide message that pops up everytime a wreck is raised.

    It sounds more like you want more pvp out there which only happens when others get out there, but that is completely different subject and no new ships are going to make the seas more alive.

    Not going to touch on world bosses as few have the will to contest these days.

    There is plenty to do in the ocean, the question you need to be asking is what is it that you want to do. Then going out and finding it.
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    Have to say no to this if only we run into the same issue as the old regrade scroll problem when customized ships first appeared. Which as a reminder: There was a time that when you killed a ship it had a chance to leave a ship regrade scroll as loot. What players were doing was beaching thier clippers for cheap scrolls since sand was easy to come by for those that had aquafarms. So if you got honor for killing a ship we'd had the demolish derbies all over again. Current honor gain for ship combat is fine, you get honor for killing crew, not the ship.
    That was an issue with coding, that's like saying during war people will just suicide to get honor... Which doesn't happen. The way you get around that is treat a ship as a part of the party you are in, if the ship gets a kill, you and your party get honor, if your ship blows up, you lose honor. And before you say that guilds will blow up their own ships on each other, then the honor lost needs to equal the honor gained. If there is no loot to be gained via destroying your own boat, then people won't do it.

    So basically you want different style frames. Not going to lie, be neat to have a frame per race, give the ships some style as long as the stats and hardpoints don't change.
    No, not at all. As of right now, the limited ship pool causes there to be limited options for naval combat. More ship hulls doesn't just imply different looking ships, but ships that feel different. The schooner is vastly different from the warship, which is vastly different from a galleon. The reason these ships feel different to sail is because they each require different skills to pilot. We need more of just that. We need ships that pilot in ways that encourage people to play to their strengths. To give you an idea, A cutter vs a sloop. A cutter in the 18th century was used for getting people from A to B very quickly. Whereas a Sloop was slower, more mobile, it was used to track merchant schooners and stick near brigs to set up a power play with its bigger brother: the man-o-war. The cutter was fast, usually made of pine or cedar for speed. Sloops where made of Oak or Ironwood because they had to take the brunt of a Brig if caught out.

    What you described is the points of interest that the devs placed in to get people out to sea. You can plunder the trade routes, or run them. As for those that do wrecks, well you can hunt them too, that is why there is a area wide message that pops up everytime a wreck is raised.

    It sounds more like you want more pvp out there which only happens when others get out there, but that is completely different subject and no new ships are going to make the seas more alive.

    Not going to touch on world bosses as few have the will to contest these days.

    There is plenty to do in the ocean, the question you need to be asking is what is it that you want to do. Then going out and finding it.
    There is so much wrong with this statement, I don't know where to start. The Bosses such as Delphinad Ghost ships, and Luscas are way too much for a small group of pirates (whose community is destroyed these days). The only people who dare try is big name guilds whose members have an average gear score of nearing 8 thousand. That's not content, that is an excuse for content. Packs, people plunder packs all the time, but its never a merchant schooner, escorted by a warship, gets raided by 2 clippers and another warship. The pirating is literally, 3 people on a schooner with 4k gear scores load up from a trade outlet and leave. A pirate sitting stealthed underwater climbs aboard, kills them no problem, pulls out a clipper or warship, blows up the schooner, pulls out their own schooner, and steals the packs. Why? Because there is no reason to pirate the open ocean, there is no reward for doing so. Why don't they just get extra help? Well they do, but its in the form of more people, not in the form of being escorted by another boat. Ship to ship combat is non-existent in this day of age in Archeage. Because there is no way to successfully run the packs without being worried some pirate is camping there. Think doing it in a warship will help? Well your warship east-west goes half as fast as a schooner. So now the pirate has twice the time to find a way to board. Or even if they deem it too difficult, they don't fetch another ship to come and fight you over the packs, because he can just wait on some other sucker who doesn't have a warship to run the packs in.

    But here is the thing that doesn't make sense at all--

    "It sounds more like you want more pvp out there which only happens when others get out there, but that is completely different subject and no new ships are going to make the seas more alive."

    If someone makes a cool new ship, they are almost certainly going to go out to sea, if its a hunting ship, they are going to hunt. If it's a transport ship, they are going to do packs. If they go and do those things and like it and find it rewarding enough, they will do it more. If the ocean felt similar to war in Mistmerrow, and there were REAL rewards for doing naval combat, more people would hit the ocean, It might not be for everyone, but a ton of people would go and commit to that kind of endgame goal.

    To emphasize, it needs to be SHIP TO SHIP combat, not- since my gear is better, let me board and kill you all. To help ship to ship combat, there needs to be a more ships to cover ground on specializations.

    While true there are strategies to take out galleons with clippers and galleons with warships, almost no one does it because there is no point. If there was a point, people would do it.

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    This post was previously a duplicate of the one above

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daelimia View Post
    That was an issue with coding, that's like saying during war people will just suicide to get honor... Which doesn't happen. The way you get around that is treat a ship as a part of the party you are in, if the ship gets a kill, you and your party get honor, if your ship blows up, you lose honor. And before you say that guilds will blow up their own ships on each other, then the honor lost needs to equal the honor gained. If there is no loot to be gained via destroying your own boat, then people won't do it.
    Except that you can go negative (I was for a bit in 2.0) honor. So you just use a ship owned by alts of the opposite faction and BAM, free honor. Effectivately what some do now anyway, just add a ship to the mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daelimia View Post
    No, not at all. As of right now, the limited ship pool causes there to be limited options for naval combat. More ship hulls doesn't just imply different looking ships, but ships that feel different. The schooner is vastly different from the warship, which is vastly different from a galleon. The reason these ships feel different to sail is because they each require different skills to pilot. We need more of just that. We need ships that pilot in ways that encourage people to play to their strengths. To give you an idea, A cutter vs a sloop. A cutter in the 18th century was used for getting people from A to B very quickly. Whereas a Sloop was slower, more mobile, it was used to track merchant schooners and stick near brigs to set up a power play with its bigger brother: the man-o-war. The cutter was fast, usually made of pine or cedar for speed. Sloops where made of Oak or Ironwood because they had to take the brunt of a Brig if caught out.
    Most of this can be done with changes in the equipment on said ships. Saw merchants used as transports until the buoyancy rules were applied. They had good sails and light rudders with little to no crates, made them pretty fast landing craft for Freedich runs.

    Same can be applied to gallons and enoans. Enoan has heavy cannons with an escort gallon or two having really good sails, rudder, a few shrapnel cannons and harpoons and you have a deck clearing escort that holds the target in place for the bigger vessel to pound it to dust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daelimia View Post
    There is so much wrong with this statement, I don't know where to start. The Bosses such as Delphinad Ghost ships, and Luscas are way too much for a small group of pirates (whose community is destroyed these days). The only people who dare try is big name guilds whose members have an average gear score of nearing 8 thousand. That's not content, that is an excuse for content. Packs, people plunder packs all the time, but its never a merchant schooner, escorted by a warship, gets raided by 2 clippers and another warship. The pirating is literally, 3 people on a schooner with 4k gear scores load up from a trade outlet and leave. A pirate sitting stealthed underwater climbs aboard, kills them no problem, pulls out a clipper or warship, blows up the schooner, pulls out their own schooner, and steals the packs. Why? Because there is no reason to pirate the open ocean, there is no reward for doing so. Why don't they just get extra help? Well they do, but its in the form of more people, not in the form of being escorted by another boat. Ship to ship combat is non-existent in this day of age in Archeage. Because there is no way to successfully run the packs without being worried some pirate is camping there. Think doing it in a warship will help? Well your warship east-west goes half as fast as a schooner. So now the pirate has twice the time to find a way to board. Or even if they deem it too difficult, they don't fetch another ship to come and fight you over the packs, because he can just wait on some other sucker who doesn't have a warship to run the packs in.
    You pretty much summed up why there is little ship to ship combat in this game right here.

    This is more of a combat in AA issue as a whole then anything else... well never mind, cause boarding parties were deadly back in the day. I'm not talking AA I'm talking pre Reniannce era. AA naval combat is more about the crew then the ship. At least when the ships are evenly matched. Boarding has been a staple of sea combat in AA for a long time.

    Honestly naval combat in AA is more theatrical the more I think about it and seems to be continuing to that point. Even with the new turtleship I can see most of the combat seen in 'The Admiral' being done, well not the river scenes we don't have rivers that big or deep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daelimia View Post
    If someone makes a cool new ship, they are almost certainly going to go out to sea, if its a hunting ship, they are going to hunt. If it's a transport ship, they are going to do packs. If they go and do those things and like it and find it rewarding enough, they will do it more. If the ocean felt similar to war in Mistmerrow, and there were REAL rewards for doing naval combat, more people would hit the ocean, It might not be for everyone, but a ton of people would go and commit to that kind of endgame goal.
    Mind you I won't mind new ships, but I'm at a lose as to what could be added that I couldn't just make based on the current frames. All the examples your asking for I can make now, troop transport aside.

    In general it's a matter of having a reason to use ships in the first place. That is what we need, not really new ships, but missions for what we have already.

    Though funny you mentioned Mistmarrow as the naval arena is damn near close. And there it is strict ship to ship combat as you can't hurt the crews.
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