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Thread: Feedback: trade System as a whole

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    Senior Member Gentatsu's Avatar
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    Feedback: trade System as a whole

    Feedback on the Trade Pack System as whole

    Hello Xlgames, Trion and fellow players,

    The following is just my point of view and opinion. Right or wrong thats all that it is. It is meant to be "my own" feedback to XLgames and Trion. Other players are more than welcome to make their own posts in this thread about the topic. If there are posts harassing, trolling, attacking or flaming I ask the Forum Moderators to take appropriate action against such aggressors. Which means, no comments of Your an idiot, your a moron, your a fool, etc, etc, etc. Just make your own post on the topic from your own point of view. Not a quote of a previous post saying, "your wrong", doing so makes 0 progress and wont resolve anything.


    now, onto the topic.


    the Tier 1 trade packs:
    It currently takes 14 specialty packs + 8 fertilizer or plaza pack + 4 Aged Larders turned into the trade centers. This will Generate 2 Tier 2 (east coast: Haranian Cargo, West Coast: Nuian Cargo) Cargo packs. On east coast that is Yny, Villi and Solis. on the East Continent you can turn in any Trade Packs from any of the zones to 1 of the 3 Trade centers in Solis, villi or Yny. On the West Continent that is Cinderstone, Two Crown and Solzreed. As each player turns in their trade pack, the payout % of said same trade pack will drop. The more trade packs of the same type that are turned in the lower the % goes. The only way to increase the Payout % of any pack is to turn in the missing type of trade pack. For example: if there is 1225 total Aged Larders and 550 total Fertilizer / Plaza trade packs and 0 Specialty Packs. then Specialty packs will be needed to be turned in to increase the Payout % of the Larders and Fert/plaza packs. Using this same example, It would take around 35 specialty packs to increase the Larder and Fert/trade packs by 2%. When this happens it will increase the % on the lowest rated Payout first. Which means, if there is 112%, 115%., a bunch at 117% and so on. It will increase the % of the lowest % first, increasing the 112% to 113% then to 114% then to 115% and on and on. So any hopes that any player has increasing a specific pack % back up to 130% is going to take a lot of work and a lot of trade packs. It is also important to note that the Tier 1 Trade packs also have different Payout % depending on where you turn them in. So for example, A Hasla Larder will currently pay the best in Solis, while Windscour larders Pay the best in Yny and Most packs will pay the worst in Villi. Although Villi does have some payouts close to Solis payouts but not all. When turning in Aged Larders the % will drop 2% for every freighter load of 10 larders. So in a nut shell, it is extremely easy to lower a specific aged larder trade pack but a lot of work to attempt to increase the % on the same larder. I dont have any specifics on the Fert and plaza packs as I mainly Craft and turn in Larders and specialty Packs.

    The issue as I see it:
    From my point of View there is a few things that have created a few issues. First its the ratio's. It only takes 30 Aged Larders of the same type to drop the % for that larder down 6%. But To regain that 6% back they have to turn in enough other types of packs to cover all the Larder %'s not just 1 aged larder type. So if there is 1364 Aged larders in the system its going to take roughly 4,774 Specialty packs and 2,728 Fert/Plaza packs to return the aged Larder %'s back to 130% payout. this system works the same way as if the roles were different like needing larder or fert packs. It is all determined as to if its 4 larders needed to make 2 cargo, 8 fert/plaza to make 2 cargo or 14 specialty to make 2 cargo. The Second and most important factor in this equation is the Human player. While the trade centers offer Higher or lower payouts for tier 1 packs Many players will just unilize the Solis trade center even though trade packs may be worth more elsewhere. While I do understand that players are free to play how they wish to play and turn in the trade packs where they wish to it does create a problem at solis. As many players turn in all there packs at solis due to decent payout regardless of the pack and its mostly all safe route runs to get there. Some players do utilize villi trade center but not all. Yny trade center is in a danger lvling zone so it makes things dangerous when running packs in or out if its not peace. When i asked other players to help craft and run in specialty packs into Solis on kraken most said no because the labor used + the amount of ingredients vs the pack payouts even at 130% was just to low. There are a few players who did their very best to help with my experiment yesterday and to those 2 players (you know who you are) I deeply thank you for your efforts. Between 3 of us players We made close to 1000 specialty packs and turned them all in at solis to attempt to raise the aged larder %'s. I specificaly tracked Hasla and rokhala larders for this experiment. When we started Rokhala larders were down to 112% and 113% Hasla Larders were at 116%. When we 3 players got done turning in the almost 1000 specialty packs Rokhala and Hasla were at a steady 119%. which was also hampered due to players bringing in Windscour larder to solis when they pay way better in yny. Alas though it is there prerogative, even if i might not agree with it.
    Therefore it is of my opinion that the 14 specialty + 8 fert/plaza + 4 larder ratio to be changed. I do not know what to suggest as the correct ratio but the fert/plaza seem to stay around 125% to 130% so it seems fine. The larders stay between 102% to 119% which is due to the mass volume of larders turned in, The 14 required specialty packs is where I feel the change needs to be. Either by raising the specialty packs payouts, reducing the labor require or by reducing the amount of mats. But something is needed to be changed to get players to want to run specialty packs because not many players are crafting and turning in specialty packs vs the amount of larders and fer/plaza packs.


    The Tier 2 Cargo packs:
    These are made from the Tier 1 packs. 14 Specialty + 8 Fert/Plaza packs + 4 larders. When this requirement of 14/8/4 is met it creates 2 tier 2 cargo packs. On the East it is Haranian cargo and is taken to the west continent or Diamond shores. On the West it is Nuian Cargo and is taken to the east continent or Diamond Shores. Each trade center has a MAX Cargo Cap allowed which is 200 cargo. When this happens Players are still welcome to turn in Tier 1 packs but they will never be able to increase any payout %'S for teir 1 packs due to the trade center being at max capacity on said cargo pack. To purchase a Tier Cargo a player needs 75 labor, A cargo cert (purchased in vocation shop for 300) and around 45gold to 55gold sometimes less if there is a lot of Tier 2 cargo packs in stock. The system is set up so that the less T2 cargo there is the more you pay. The more T2 Cargo in stock the less you pay. When you have Purchased your T2 cargo pack you then take it to the opposite continent or Diamond Shores within 30 minutes for max payout %. Once this T2 Cargo Pack is turned in the system immediately adds it to that Continents T3 Cargo pack supply which is then turned in for Charcoal at inland trade npcs or to freedrich island for the essence. I have not done any of the trade system in Auroria and where or what the specifics are for making packs in Auroria. So I hope Someone will post there knowledge of the Auroria trade system with as many specifics as possible. It Also Costs 175 labor to turn in a Tier 2 Cargo pack. I do believe both the purchase and sell price for all cargo packs is altered by a players Commerce profession level. I do not know what the gold payouts is for running T2 cargo packs So I do hope someone posts that information for east, west and auroria.

    The only Issue as I see it:
    The Current and only issue I see with the T2 cargo pack system is the max capacity of 200. I have only seen the Kraken trade centers on the east continent reach 200 cargo twice. Its not the 200 limit im exacty having an issue with its the part that while its at 200 any T1 packs turned in during this time has 0 effect on increasing any Trade payout %'s, but you can still lower the payout %'s with great ease. This i feel needs to be addressed and changed.


    The Tier 3 Cargo Packs:
    These Tier 3 Cargo Packs are generated when players bring them across the ocean and turn them in. On the east continent That would be A Nuian T3 cargo pack purchased for 75 labor, a Cargo Cert and some gold. Like the T2 cargo packs, it also has a 30 minute timer. The longer you wait the less you get as a payment due to cargo pack degradation. It also takes 175 Labor to turn in the cargo pack, which on the east continent needs to be in Falcorth, Arcum Iris or Peri. This well get you 20 to 23 charcoal stabilizer i believe. I have not done the T3 cargo packs in Auroria so I do not know the amount of charcoal 1 would get up there. I hope someone will add that info to this thread..


    The Issues as I see it:
    I feel there is a couple issues with the T3 cargo packs. First is, the family daily quest. It requires the purchase of a T3 cargo pack and turned in to complete the quest. While i do agree with many players that this is causing players to buy mass amounts of T3 cargo and storing them on plots just for the daily quest turn in. Many players are asking for the family quest daily to be removed. They feel it would increase the amount T3 cargo at the trade centers awaiting purchase. I do NOT agree with that sentiment. I Purchase T3 cargo as I see them and I turn them in within the 30 minutes. Recent changes to the cargo packs has had 0 effect on the cargo system. Because there is such a HUGE demand for charcoal right now it isnt even funny. There fore I am against the removal of Family Cargo quest daily. The second part of the issue is the amount of charcoal as payment when turning in the T3 cargo. If you do the family daily quest you get a guaranteed 20 charcoal which is why this quest is so appealing and helpful to PVE players and the 20 charcoal reward is fine in my opinion. The t3 cargo packs on east can get you 20 to 23 charcoal at max % if turned in within 30 minutes. This needs to be increased in my opinion. As the amount of charcoal needed and is in such a huge demand. By increasing the amount of charcoal from 20 to 23 to a higher amount like 40 to 43 it still would not be the same amounts we got under the old original trade system which i could gt 80 charcoal per pack back then. Then adjust the auroria T3 payouts higher as this is a risk vs reward system and it needs to remain as such. By increasing the amount of charcoal payout it would and a HUGE incentive for players to buy and turn the packs in immediately rather than stock pile them on a plot for doing the daily family cargo quest.



    This has been my feedback and opinion on the trade system. Others are welcome to add there own feedback on how they see it. Please refrain from quoting another's post to insult or troll them. I want this to be a healthy discussion for Trion and XLgames and not a flame fest.


    Thank you
    Gentatsu, Duskfire member on Kraken
    Owner Operator of Gent Mart! The place to be for all you're crafting needs. Be smart! Craft it at Gent Mart! Located in Windscour North housing. Owner of Gentwarts School of Magic in Windscour North housing and Gentwarts Leaky Cauldron In Rokhala for those who Enjoy to RP.

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    Regarding T3 packs.

    I agree that the charcoal payout should be doubled.

    The price of charcoal is holding much of the crafting system hostage and artificially holding down the demand for many items used in crafting. The problem can not be solved by adding other charcoal inputs into the economy (ex. charcoal event) because that will make the pack prices for T3 packs no longer worth the risk and effort of running T3 packs.

    Instead, they need to double the payouts of T3 packs to cut the value of charcoal in half. This would increase the demand on all other items used in crafting recipes that require charcoal and effectively balance the economy.

    Charcoal should be in the 2-3g range; not the 4g range.

    The other way to solve the problem is the reduce the charcoal cost of all recipes across the board by half.

    I don't see how anyone can think there isn't a problem when you consider Ayanad weaponsmithing scrolls are routinely selling for prices that make ayanad scrap prices going into those scrolls 3g or so per scrap. That is a symptom of a major problem.

    I don't run T3 packs but I like to do a fair bit of crafting and the prices of charcoal have made that impractical.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Meridian's Avatar
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    I would also either put the T2 cargo cost back where it was or increase the payout. After the price increase to buy cargo, the profit is not worth the risk.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Focslain's Avatar
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    Excellent run down of the system, little better on the paragraph breaks, but awesome work here.

    Few things to add to your suggestions

    T1 - As for trade post usage, the capital post (Austura/Two Crowns) is mostly used to to the safety and access to the merchant gallon. The center posts (Villi/Solz) are safe but don't have safe transport, making them less of a decent drop off point since getting cargo out can be tricky. The PvP posts (Yny/Cinderstone) you are correct and in the next update Xl added in a change that increase the turn in price by almost 50% if the zones are in War. Hopefully increasing the temptation to run in a few packs for higher profits.

    As for ratio... dropping the amount of standard specialites would be nice, maybe to 10 but not below 8. As a side note, on Conviction we have a Fert issue in that there is way too many of them in the post (swap your Kraken % of larders and fert). So yeah, no change in the ratio of fert/larders really needed.

    T2 - Considering I have never seen a post above 100 cargo (highest on personal record is 48), there was suppose to be a system message as well as a bonus discount to the purchase price of the cargo. Have you seen this or niced a sudden drop in the purchase price in cargo when it hit near full?

    T3 - Increasing the pay out of the cargo is not going to stop or even curb the amount of t3 lost to the family quest. Mostly due to the fact that yes the quest is a flat reward but it also doesn't count to the drop in pay out and it's an instant return. Plus the fact that the condition doesn't matter is the bigger issue.

    As a suggestion maybe make it so only high or standard profits work for the quest. At least then they'll have to turn in the cargo that day and it could curb the family alt issue.

    We also have a new pack coming in that is made from loot dropped by the new shadow revolt mobs. Going to have to see how those work.
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    I don't see the issue you are seeing with aged packs. I took a look around some servers to see the turn in values and it does seem like Austera does pile up with packs sometimes but here is a list of what I found on aged pack turn in values:

    Code:
    Retribution: 124%
    Eanna (Solz, not Austera since i had no east toon there): 126%, 118% for ferts
    Shatigon: 121%
    Prophecy: 116% (2 types), but most above 120%. I probably grabbed this just after someone turned in those aged packs. 
    
    Kraken: 109%, 110% for ferts So many aged packs it's crazy. (23 types of aged packs under 120%)
    Kyrios: 130% (normal zone and gilda packs are piling up, not aged)
    Conviction: 124%, 123 for ferts
    Reckoning: 1 was 116 (arcum of all places), the rest 122%+. Again, probably just after a recent turn in.
    Since Kraken is the only outlier that has a significant amount of aged packs piling up in Austera it really doesn't scream out that there is a systemic issue with the whole crafted pack trade system but only that there is a very localized issue on Kraken and only for the Austera turn in (since if you look elsewhere things are pretty normal).

    Maybe Kraken just doesn't understand that normal specialty and gilda packs make more money from safe zones than the aged packs from those same areas.

    As for the T2 cargo and T3 cargo this all centers around the family quest. You say you will run charcoal based cargo if the family quest is there or not... but you don't seem to notice that the only reason you can run them at decent turn in values is that barely anyone else turns them in using anything but the family quest which doesn't affect the turn in value. Otherwise you would be getting 17... 16... 15 charcoal per pack and at some point you would give up because you realize it's just not worth it below about 18 at current charcoal prices.

    Two very simple things need to happen to the cargo system to make it instantly better. The first is that the trade info window needs to be able to show you both the ocean cargo turn in values and the charcoal turn in values at all of the trade posts. Being able to see when it's not a good time to turn in cargo is essential for people to leaving T3 cargo in the trade post for the prices to drop.

    The second thing is that the family quest should work just like the farm quest but for the normal specialty packs. You craft the specialty pack and then carry it on your back near the trader and the quest completes to give you your vocation and then anyone can turn in the pack. This would make all the alt armies out there put to use generating cargo for others rather than hoarding it all on land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Focslain View Post
    T2 - Considering I have never seen a post above 100 cargo (highest on personal record is 48), there was suppose to be a system message as well as a bonus discount to the purchase price of the cargo. Have you seen this or niced a sudden drop in the purchase price in cargo when it hit near full?
    There are a couple of systems in place in 4.0 that weren't there before and Trion has claimed the sale system is still in place but that only kicks in when the towers are full or near full of cargo.

    As for the turn in value for gold of cargo there is now a mechanic in place where it doesn't take the same number of cargo to drop the payout value the same percentage depending on how many packs are in stock. All the other specialties (like normal, Gilda, fert, aged... etc) take 4 packs to drop the payout amount 1% and the payout amount drops according to the 130% is just the 100% value * 1.3 and it's as simple as that. For cargo this is different. For instance, if there are zero cargo in stock and you sell 6 cargo to the tower the payout value remains at 130%, at 7 the payout value will drop to 129%. However, if there was already 90 cargo in stock and you sold only 5 the payout demand percentage would drop from 92% down to 89%. This seems to be fairly linear through the gold payout values for cargo from the data I have so far, each percentage drops the payout value by 0.493 gold and the number of packs needed to drop the percentage seems to get smaller the whole way through the stock range.

    Where it gets really complicated is the purchase price of cargo, for both ocean based and charcoal land based. The same mechanic applies for the demand percentage as the payout demand percentage in that it drops faster the more cargo is in stock but the demand percentage has nothing to do with the actual cost of the pack, each cargo stock level is priced individually rather than by demand percentage. The amount of difference in the pack price significantly increases until there are around 50 cargo in stock and then drops off and levels out beyond that. This helps ensure that as the stock levels get below 50 the prices stay high to help nudge people in to not running it... but that stupid family quest makes it profitable no matter the price so everyone hoards it anyway.

    If you graph a 5 pack stock level price difference moving average the price differences between each pack and the cargo pack before it look like this:



    So, this graph is showing you the price difference for each pack stock level to the price of the one before it, averaged over the last 5 packs to make it less jerky and squiggly looking.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Gentatsu's Avatar
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    I was sent some Auroria info via discord so I am adding it here.

    I was informed on discord that the T3 Cargo turned in at Auroria gives 31 charcoal at 130%. That is taking the T3 pack from Diamon Shore trade center to the Golden Ruins Charcoal NPC. It was also pointed out to me that on Kraken as of late Auroria has been at 86% and is steadily staying below 90% due to High Supply. At its current 86% rate I am told you still get 20 charcoal per T3 pack.
    Gentatsu, Duskfire member on Kraken
    Owner Operator of Gent Mart! The place to be for all you're crafting needs. Be smart! Craft it at Gent Mart! Located in Windscour North housing. Owner of Gentwarts School of Magic in Windscour North housing and Gentwarts Leaky Cauldron In Rokhala for those who Enjoy to RP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentatsu View Post
    I was sent some Auroria info via discord so I am adding it here.

    I was informed on discord that the T3 Cargo turned in at Auroria gives 31 charcoal at 130%. That is taking the T3 pack from Diamon Shore trade center to the Golden Ruins Charcoal NPC. It was also pointed out to me that on Kraken as of late Auroria has been at 86% and is steadily staying below 90% due to High Supply. At its current 86% rate I am told you still get 20 charcoal per T3 pack.
    This seems about right. You can see Omen (Q Q) taking merchant ships from any port that piles up with cargo up in that direction all the time. Go sit an alt in Solzreed for a few hours and just watch the sheer number of crafted packs and the number of cargo going out of there all day long. It's kind of crazy.

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    I wish they would redesign the system to be less obnoxious and complex. Typically this system hasn't effected me much because someone on my server was running cargo. Last night no one was running cargo and it just sucked.

    The system isn't fun. The system is needlessly complicated. The system sucks.

    With the increased pack costs from when this system came in; the payouts need to be in the 120%+ range for it to worth running packs. They need to at the very least adjust the system so the payouts stay high if they want to have pack costs as high as they are (and I think they do).

    At 130% turnin prices the system works great. I like the system fine when I can get a reasonable turnin price on my packs without needing to mess with the cargo parts of the system.

    Easiest way to fix the problem I had last night would be to add an npc that you can sell packs to at cost at the turnin station to have the packs "run" for you. this NPC would only appear if the turnin prices on packs drop below 120%. The player would still be sacrificing labor in order to get the price per pack back up.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollolol View Post
    With the increased pack costs from when this system came in; the payouts need to be in the 120%+ range for it to worth running packs. They need to at the very least adjust the system so the payouts stay high if they want to have pack costs as high as they are (and I think they do).
    This just simply isn't true. Though the pack mats increased in costs many of the requirements were reduced and also the packs were buffed at the same time by sometimes massive amounts. This made almost every single run profitable with very few that are negative returns. Many of the new runs make well over 10 silver per labor, even for safe zones where that was very difficult to maintain before.

    As an example, lets take a look at a common safe zone run in 3.0 compared to today, Falcorth to Solis:

    Snowliion yarn from 10.2651 to 15.5158, 51% buff (cost reduced, silver per labor from 5.1 to 15.4)
    Apple Tarts from 9.0796 to 14.7768, 62.7% buff (cost increased 39.2%, silver per labor went from 4.8 to 9.6).
    Trade House Fert Packs from 11.8099 to 16.9933, 43.8% buff ( cost increased 22%, silver per labor from 8.2 to 13.4)
    Fellowship Fert Pack which is now Carrot Cake from 11.5523 to 16.2546, 40.7% buff (cost reduced, silver per labor from negative to 7.4)

    All of the larders from there didn't make sense before... and they still don't. Don't run aged packs from Falcorth.

    In every single case for packs you would run from there you make WAY more than you did before and the turn in values would have to dip well in to the low 100's before you even broke even. This trend continues across most of the packs from most of the zones, especially in safe zones who saw the largest increases.

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