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Thread: Feedback: trade System as a whole

  1. #11
    Senior Member jahlon's Avatar
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    Cargo should not be able to be stored on land or in silos. Force people to turn them in and keep the cycle moving.

    Granted, the player doesn't have to do anything with the charcoal, but it's better than seeing 12,000 worth of charcoal sitting on plots.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jahlon View Post
    Cargo should not be able to be stored on land or in silos. Force people to turn them in and keep the cycle moving.

    Granted, the player doesn't have to do anything with the charcoal, but it's better than seeing 12,000 worth of charcoal sitting on plots.
    That's the family quest for ya. Bringing the whole thing tumbling down.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snerdles View Post
    This just simply isn't true. Though the pack mats increased in costs many of the requirements were reduced and also the packs were buffed at the same time by sometimes massive amounts. This made almost every single run profitable with very few that are negative returns. Many of the new runs make well over 10 silver per labor, even for safe zones where that was very difficult to maintain before.

    As an example, lets take a look at a common safe zone run in 3.0 compared to today, Falcorth to Solis:

    Snowliion yarn from 10.2651 to 15.5158, 51% buff (cost reduced, silver per labor from 5.1 to 15.4)
    Apple Tarts from 9.0796 to 14.7768, 62.7% buff (cost increased 39.2%, silver per labor went from 4.8 to 9.6).
    Trade House Fert Packs from 11.8099 to 16.9933, 43.8% buff ( cost increased 22%, silver per labor from 8.2 to 13.4)
    Fellowship Fert Pack which is now Carrot Cake from 11.5523 to 16.2546, 40.7% buff (cost reduced, silver per labor from negative to 7.4)

    All of the larders from there didn't make sense before... and they still don't. Don't run aged packs from Falcorth.

    In every single case for packs you would run from there you make WAY more than you did before and the turn in values would have to dip well in to the low 100's before you even broke even. This trend continues across most of the packs from most of the zones, especially in safe zones who saw the largest increases.
    What I said is based on my perspective. I didn't run packs before 3.0 because they weren't worth my time so the argument that they were less worth my time before the patch doesn't convince me. My comments are based on what I think I should be making with the time I put into it.

    What I said about the fix to the trade rate collapsing was based on not understanding what makes the price go down. That fact alone make the argument that the system is too complicated and not documented well enough. I don't even know where you go to get a clear understanding of how the system works. IMO, it is a terrible design that hurts the game. Population numbers before and after the system went in support my claim. The system sucks.

    I think I understand how it works now but I also think it is a bad design because it is easy to stall it out. If someone stops running larders for a day it hurts everyone. You can't fix the problem because you would need larders in order to fix the problem which takes 3 days to get set up.

    In this case, the fix would be to allow the system to count large stacks of basic packs as a single larder if no one is running larders. That is to say, I think it is really poor design to tie the prices to larders under any circumstances.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollolol View Post
    What I said is based on my perspective. I didn't run packs before 3.0 because they weren't worth my time so the argument that they were less worth my time before the patch doesn't convince me. My comments are based on what I think I should be making with the time I put into it.

    What I said about the fix to the trade rate collapsing was based on not understanding what makes the price go down. That fact alone make the argument that the system is too complicated and not documented well enough. I don't even know where you go to get a clear understanding of how the system works. IMO, it is a terrible design that hurts the game. Population numbers before and after the system went in support my claim. The system sucks.

    I think I understand how it works now but I also think it is a bad design because it is easy to stall it out. If someone stops running larders for a day it hurts everyone. You can't fix the problem because you would need larders in order to fix the problem which takes 3 days to get set up.

    In this case, the fix would be to allow the system to count large stacks of basic packs as a single larder if no one is running larders. That is to say, I think it is really poor design to tie the prices to larders under any circumstances.
    It makes it like an actual trade system. The things that people run you should not run, and the things that peope are not running you should run. It's designed around the concept of all packs are valuable (well... most anyway) at some point and the ones that are MOST valuable are the ones that are in the most demand at the time. This makes it a nice dynamic system that changes based on user activity rather than the static stuff we had previous where you just looked at a spreadheet found the top pack and ignored everything else because there was no point to it existing.

    Here's and example. Lets say you have infrastructure down and you like Running Hasla aged packs 24/7 because they give you the most gold of any aged pack on the east that you can run with a freighter or two. Rokhala is technically more, but car runs 5 at a time with only 1 alt account take way to long when you can just run 18 at a time one two freighters you can drive yourself. So you are trucking 18 aged packs at a time.

    You are currently making about 19.5 silver per labor in the NA since you craft your own larder and it costs 120 labor to craft, collect, and turn in. That's a pretty good return historically.

    Now some crazy person comes along and starts turning in Falcorth aged packs which means your aged packs are dropping in price, with every 4 you turn in your demand percentage drops by 1% and that 19.5 is quickly creeping down to 19, and then 18, and then 17... so you decide you are going to find a different pack in hasla to run. You take a look at Cured meat but it only gets about 15 silver per labor and isn't worth the risk of losing when you can get 12 in a safe zone, you look at fert packs which offer 21 but show the same problem as larders because the more you run the more the value drops since trade posts are packed full of fert packs from all over. You look at the fellowship packs and anuquities but darn about 15 silver per labor again so why bother . . .

    But wait! There is a pack that is easy to make, cheap, stays at 130% all day, and offers a good return. Our savior the softened fabric. If you put a value of the Gilda at 1.5g each (which is WAY high currently) then this pack offers 21 silver per labor because it only needs 72 labor to craft and turn in. Yes, while it offers less absolute gold per pack, on a per labor basis it's actually better than aged packs.

    . . .

    Anyway, enough story time. The point is that this system is much more like an actual trade system where if you understand how it works there is quite literally always a pack to run that makes good money and it's different based on what users are doing.

    I do agree. Trion has completely failed in describing to users how the system works. Also, XL does a very terrible job at providing the information needed to users trying to use the system. Just little things like you should be able to go to a trade post and in the production info window at the cargo selller it should show you either how many of each type (continent specialty, merchant specialty or aged specialty) are in the tower . . . If not that, at the very least it should have a little info that says "Currently waiting on: Haranyan Specialties" or something along that line.

    Users also need to be able to tell the turn in values for cargo at different locations. There is currently no way to see the charcoal exchanger turn ins at all and having to travel to all the ports just to see their current stock is a huge pain for ocean runs.

    One of the major problems with the system is users and lack of understanding of the system. I just happened to be on Retribution at the time and I looked at the Solis tower and you see 12 of each Falcorth honey and Mahadevi honey. Honey in the EU the last time I checked cost 13.4g to make and they are getting under 18g for falc and just under 20g for Mahadevi. That works out to about 4.3 and 6.2 slver per labor respectivly. These are some of the worst possible packs that you can possibly run on the east (basically, only salve from those zones are worse) and now those 24 aged packs need 84 normal or gilda packs to be delivered to get consumed and make cargo so they are clogging up the pricing on other packs.

    The rule of thumb I like to give that's nice and easy to remember. If your aged pack is under 28g to turn in, run something else.

    I think people just need to understand: Just like through the whole history of the game Safe zone larders are really dumb. Spread the word.

  5. #15
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    It's unfortunate that this thread is going to be buried in the 'completely ignored' section of the forums. I did think of another way the system could help nudge people toward making more profitable packs and it uses a similar mechanic to the sale system on cargo when the towers are full. At the opposite end if the towers have less than 50 cargo and the tower is waiting on any one category of pack for a certain period of time then it could randomly trigger a price increase sale on purchasing that pack type from people. You would end up seeing something like "The Austera trade port is buying Haranyan Specialties at a 10% higher rate for the next hour", and then if the hour is up and the tower didn't cross the 50 cargo threshold during the sale it would increase to 20% and so on until the stock of cargo at the post goes above the threshold level at some point during the sale.

    It seems like there are all these protections in place to help stop cargo being stuck at 200 to ensure the system flows well, but there isn't much at the cargo generation level to help when things get clogged up there.

  6. #16
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    I get what you're saying about supply and demand. I have three issues though.

    1. Only aged packs can fix trade rates if no one is turning in aged packs. This can and does bottleneck the system. There needs to be an instant kind of pack that can count in the aged packs slot.

    2. The amount of charcoal per cargo is too low which forces the price too high and collapses the prices of a lot of other mats.

    3. The system is unintuitive and poorly documented.

    I probably have other issues but these are the three main ones. I'm typically happy when I can just keep running the packs I run. Sometimes the rates collapse.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollolol View Post
    I get what you're saying about supply and demand. I have three issues though.

    1. Only aged packs can fix trade rates if no one is turning in aged packs. This can and does bottleneck the system. There needs to be an instant kind of pack that can count in the aged packs slot.

    2. The amount of charcoal per cargo is too low which forces the price too high and collapses the prices of a lot of other mats.

    3. The system is unintuitive and poorly documented.

    I probably have other issues but these are the three main ones. I'm typically happy when I can just keep running the packs I run. Sometimes the rates collapse.
    1. This is the same for any pack. That's the whole point. If the bottle neck was aged packs then it makes it super easy for small groups to control cargo production for times when they want to run cargo. It's actually better for cargo runners if aged packs are the bottle neck. For instance, if villanelle has a ton of normal/gilda packs and fert/fellow packs thne it just takes 5 freighters to make enough cargo to fill a merch with cargo and that chews through 140 basic packs to recover prices for the normal/gilda pack runners. To do the same if there are aged packs and fert/fellow packs in there you need to deliver 140 normal/gilda packs.... someone is probably going to notice that before you get done.

    2. This is a symptom of the family quest. If that quest were gone then more cargo would travel to the PVP turn in and Diamond Shores if you could both see what the safe zone turn in value are and the average charcoal generated per cargo would increase as well as the average purchase price of cargo would decrease. The safe zone runs only make sense when you get 19+ charcoal at 4g per charcoal. If you get 19 charcoal and can sell it on the AH for 4g each then you are only making 15 silver per labor. At the current NA value of 3.7g per charcoal if you get 19 and buy the last cargo in the tower you are only making 11 silver per labor... safe zone normal/gilda packs are better than that. The family quest guarantees 20 charcoal, uses a third the labor, doesn't get affected by pack age, and gives you a vocation profit which makes it work out to 63 silver per labor which makes it the best safe guaranteed pack the game has ever seen by far. More cargo staying in the towers longer reduced average purchase price which makes charcoal cheaper overall.

    3. I agree... maybe not about the intuitive part but at least about the lack of documentation and info in game. The system drastically needs to be able to show you the turn in values of both ocean cargo and certed cargo for charcoal before you buy them to run them. It also needs an easy way to tell which packs are in demand at a glance. I think more and more people are understanding how it all works though, except maybe Kraken east who still just fill Austera with aged packs for some unknown reason. You can see the charcoal prices are slowly creeping downward over the past week or so.

  8. #18
    And one major issue I see is when I buy a freighter worth of packs to turn in for charcoal and get them there and the % is so low that I get less then 20 charcoal at High value why should I turn them in and lose charcoal/ gold? I shouldn't and won't take a loss so I turn around and store them for future family quests. Because getting less at high profit for a cargo pack then for the family quest is just wrong. So to fix this the Cargo packs should NEVER pay less then the family quest. So at high profit and 100% turn in should not be less then 21 charcoal. At higher % then the return would be higher and you wouldn't have anyone hoarding cargo.

    But I do not agree that the family quest is the root of the issue. The system is screwed up at tier 1 and it just cascades from there. Not enough reward for the risk at tier 2 since the prices have almost doubled...

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jahlon View Post
    Cargo should not be able to be stored on land or in silos. Force people to turn them in and keep the cycle moving.

    Granted, the player doesn't have to do anything with the charcoal, but it's better than seeing 12,000 worth of charcoal sitting on plots.
    This is not a solution, the moment you "Force" players to react they will respond in various ways not necessarily how you might imagine. Players simply wont buy the packs rather than being forced to hand in for example.

    The Family quest is not the problem here, its the reward for handing in the pack normally compared to the return for the Family quest.

  10. #20
    I think the value of larders should be increased at the traders. I did some quick math the other night and came to the conclusion that people who make larders waste valuable labor and thus receive less profit per labor than those who run specialties. Let's look at the reasons why.

    Larders take:
    Resources (lemons, honey, milk, hay bales, etc.) that cost more per pack than most of the materials used for specialty packs.
    Land, which often must be purchased or built.
    Taxes (whether purchased or made it matters not)
    Time (3 days)

    Do the math for yourself to figure out how you are actually earning per labor.

    For those who BUY their own materials:

    (Multi-Purpose Aging Larder price Number of spaces for larders on one farm) = A
    (Tax for one farm in gold 2) =B Since you can practically get two larder rotations per week.
    [(Lemon price 30) + (Milk price 50)] Number of spaces for larders on one farm) = C Change it if you are doing Aged Honey or Aged Salve to the correct ratios.

    A + B + C = Amount it costs to make the packs = D

    (Amount of larders turned in Gross amount of gold obtained at turn in) = E

    E - D = Profit = F

    [F (Labor cost for making and turning in Amount of larders turned in)] = G Labor cost varies with proficiency, so please input your own correct labor costs.

    Someone please explain to me why I just spent over an hour trying to make this and didn't bother to clean it up. There might be some math mistakes, if so sorry. I thought I would just do something quick, but it turned out that it was more work than anticipated for a tired mind. I don't want to delete this because I put "so much" work into it (I'm lazy). If you see an error, fix it in your own calculations.

    After you've done the math, compare it to a regular pack from the same zone, and then to the zones around you. Then if you are still wondering whether it is better to do larders, consider the value of the plot of land on which you are aging these packs. Would it be better to sell the land and use that money elsewhere? If you do grow your own resources, which I don't advise, you'll actually be making even less. The labor that could have been used making more packs, is instead bound up in gathering and farming things that produce less per labor. You may be running so many alts that you don't have the time to spend all the labor running packs, but ask yourself this question: Could I be making more or the same amount with FEWER alts? If yes, then maybe it is time to stop paying for extra Apex you don't need.

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