At what point is crit damage bonus better than flat +matk?

[Lollaskates]

trying to throw together some equipment builds for a mage (reaper / revenant). In simple terms, all else the same, i'm comparing two offhand daggers for when on offense...

T7 obs v2: +62 matk (not tempering to keep math the same until hiram can be tempered)
T2 hiram dagger: +5.1% crit / 14.4% crit damage

Assuming a base of 1000 matk and the following stats for simplicity:
With T7 obs: 1062 matk, 62% crit and 138% crit bonus
With T2 hiram dagger: 1000 matk, 67% crit and 152% crit bonus

adding 14% crit damage at 67% crit rate is +9.38% damage overall (relative to 1000 matk)
adding 62 matk is +6.2% damage base, at 62% crit and 138% bonus is +11.92% damage overall (relative to 1000 matk).

did I do the math right?

(62/1000) = +6.2% damage base
(0.062 damage percent increase * .62 crit rate * 1.38 crit bonus) = +5.72% damage from crit stats
(6.2% + 5.72%) = +11.92% overall damage

So i believe the flat matk would be best in this scenario, correct?

[CxStar]

I prefer critical damage if crit rate enough

[Trusivraj]

Stack crit dmg. Period. That is all.

Explaination: Every dps in the game can obtain 70%+ crit rate with minimal effort.

[RyanA]

Crit damage is the best stat in the game. Followed by resilience as it isa direct counter to crit damage.

Flat attack is not nearly as good as it used to be.

Also, if you are going DD mage, you need song. 50% more crit damage and 15% crit rate from song is huge. Puts crit damage way over flat attack.

Rev/reaper are not Damage dealing builds.

[Myrgatroid]

I've got both; insanity point and t2 dagger w/ crit rate/crit dmg/int.

You are forgetting a couple of pieces of the equation, imo. Cast time bonus of t7 is pretty huge. I'm constantly at 40% cast time thanks to mana fountain (passive is changing, however), and 1.2s arc lightnings used properly are pretty op. Also, drop back buff (.5s) from the t7 dagger = more insta cast fireballs = more dps. I also have 89.8% crit rate and 210% crit damage with the t7 build. With the t2 dagger, 94.7% crit rate and 224% crit damage.

I've found that I miss the cast time and drop back buff of the t7 dagger when I'm using hiram. Its bonus effects have definitely been more noticeable to me than the crit rate/crit damage effects of hiram. When t3 is available, it will be harder call for me, I think.

[Sturmeko]

trying to throw together some equipment builds for a mage (reaper / revenant). In simple terms, all else the same, i'm comparing two offhand daggers for when on offense...

T7 obs v2: +62 matk (not tempering to keep math the same until hiram can be tempered)
T2 hiram dagger: +5.1% crit / 14.4% crit damage

Assuming a base of 1000 matk and the following stats for simplicity:
With T7 obs: 1062 matk, 62% crit and 138% crit bonus
With T2 hiram dagger: 1000 matk, 67% crit and 152% crit bonus

adding 14% crit damage at 67% crit rate is +9.38% damage overall (relative to 1000 matk)
adding 62 matk is +6.2% damage base, at 62% crit and 138% bonus is +11.92% damage overall (relative to 1000 matk).

did I do the math right?

(62/1000) = +6.2% damage base
(0.062 damage percent increase * .62 crit rate * 1.38 crit bonus) = +5.72% damage from crit stats
(6.2% + 5.72%) = +11.92% overall damage

So i believe the flat matk would be best in this scenario, correct?

Hi, I believe your math is a bit wrong.
That's how I would do it:

First, when you add +62 mattk you should not multiply it by crit modifiers because you compare only mattk increase, and you are not increasing crit rate or damage. So, that won't be +11.92% more damage but only 6.2% increase. Also, 6.2% is your mattk increase, but actual dmg increase will be bit less because most skills have flat damage portion unaffected by attack value. So, maybe 5-6%? Lazy to do math and also it will be different for each skill.

Second, when you deal with crit rate and damage increase. Critical dmg = normal dmg+(normal dmg*crit modifier). So let's compare crit dmg increase from hiram (138% vs 152%):
(I'll assume non-crit dmg as 1000 for simplicity)

138% crit dmg bonus: 1000+1000*1.38 = 2380
152% crit dmg bonus: 1000+1000*1.52 = 2520
(2520-2380)/2380=0.0588... or ~5.88% increase.

Now, for crit rate:
I think it should be calculated at specific crit damage, since crit dmg increase value if crit rate increase. So, at 152% you do 2520 crit vs 1000 non-crit, that is 2.52 times more.
At 5.1% crit rate increase: 5.1*(2520-1000)/1000 =7.752% more damage (at average of course because we are talking about rates here).

[Trusivraj]

Crit damage is the best stat in the game. Followed by resilience as it isa direct counter to crit damage.

Flat attack is not nearly as good as it used to be.

Also, if you are going DD mage, you need song. 50% more crit damage and 15% crit rate from song is huge. Puts crit damage way over flat attack.

Rev/reaper are not Damage dealing builds.

Actually, toughness is the second best stat, because it reduces ALL dmg (if you're reducing a players general atk dmg, then you're reducing their critical atk as well, because less dmg = less crit dmg), while resilience is solely towards crit rate and crit dmg.

[Ollolol]

Actually, toughness is the second best stat, because it reduces ALL dmg (if you're reducing a players general atk dmg, then you're reducing their critical atk as well, because less dmg = less crit dmg), while resilience is solely towards crit rate and crit dmg.

Correct. A lot of people think there is a softcap for toughness but there does not appear to be.

[Zephyres]

Here's the numbers I get:

Assume 1x damage is 1k matk with 0% crit rate and damage.

With T7 obs dagger you get 1.476x damage * 1.062 = 1.568x damage. This is also being generous since most skills have some base damage independant of character's atk stat so in practice, you might subtract something like 15%-20% of the matk increase to get the actual damage increase from flat m.atk.

Compare to Hiram offhand at 1.688x damage.

This means for skills with no base m.atk (best case for m.atk), hiram is 7.65% higher damage. For raw damage boost, hiram is almost twice as good.

I'm not a mage but I believe for PvP, the T7 dagger is still the more competitive pick since it also adds ~9% cast time and .5 back drop. Backdrop is for machine gun builds and cast time shouldn't be underrated either since for instance, 40% cast time (cast time cap) is actually 2.5x faster casts. Or for example, lets say you're already at 50% cast time (double speed), so adding 9% cast time is actually pushing your cast time from 2x to 2.44x faster than base. Pretty significant for a stat you weren't considering, unless your class has no cast time skills. On the other hand, epic hiram is coming sometime, if you'll want to grind it...

[Cohiba]

Yo guys,

to simplify all these calculations I suggest you guys can make a copy of my tool and play around with the numbers there.
Original tool here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


On Topic:
I ran your numbers through the calc and the hiram appears to do roughly 2% higher overall dps on average.


Sadly this forum tool does not really properly size the images, I guess the relevant part is not even onscreen for most people... Just feel free to try it out yourself

Considering the points Zephyres already mentioned, I guess the weapons fall pretty even.
The dps advantage of hiram is actually a lot smaller than other calculations in this thread may indicate, keep that in mind

Of course if you do play with zeal for example... you might wanna add those +60% crit dmg to the calculator.

Feel free to reach out if there are any questions.