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Thread: Primeval? Ebonsong? Current state of the Archers?

  1. #1
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    Primeval? Ebonsong? Current state of the Archers?

    Hi guys,
    I stopped playing like three years ago, I always played Darkrunner or Primeval, the second one always been my favorite Class...

    But I was a bit forced to stick with Darkrunner since the Arena Ladder was full of them (I mostly do 1v1) and sometimes it got frustrating, not because I wasn't able to beat them, but because with leech (on both part) was boring and they had so much mobility that some times you ran out of escape-tools and they still had planty of mobility to spare to catch you, I mean sometimes it felt a bit unfair in terms of moblity...

    Since the Skill changes, so less mobility and no more leech (If I read correctly) I have few questions if you don't mind.

    1) Which is the state of the Primeval? Is still viable? (Take in consideration that I hate Witchcraft\Occultism trees, but I could probably stand Songcraft)
    2)Does Endless Arrow still do 1 Damage to high defence player?
    3) Archers were improved since years ago?
    4) What does the new Skills that you can customize do\offer for the Archers? I'm pretty new to that.

    I'm asking the help from really great people like Trusivaj, that even if I'm not playing, when I lurk in the Forum I always see him give amazing and thoughtful answers.

    Thank you in advance to everybody.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Harvi View Post
    Hi guys,
    I stopped playing like three years ago, I always played Darkrunner or Primeval, the second one always been my favorite Class...

    But I was a bit forced to stick with Darkrunner since the Arena Ladder was full of them (I mostly do 1v1) and sometimes it got frustrating, not because I wasn't able to beat them, but because with leech (on both part) was boring and they had so much mobility that some times you ran out of escape-tools and they still had planty of mobility to spare to catch you, I mean sometimes it felt a bit unfair in terms of moblity...

    Since the Skill changes, so less mobility and no more leech (If I read correctly) I have few questions if you don't mind.

    1) Which is the state of the Primeval? Is still viable? (Take in consideration that I hate Witchcraft\Occultism trees, but I could probably stand Songcraft)
    2)Does Endless Arrow still do 1 Damage to high defence player?
    3) Archers were improved since years ago?
    4) What does the new Skills that you can customize do\offer for the Archers? I'm pretty new to that.

    I'm asking the help from really great people like Trusivaj, that even if I'm not playing, when I lurk in the Forum I always see him give amazing and thoughtful answers.

    Thank you in advance to everybody.
    And here I am to help, my friend!
    Ok.. *breathes in*
    Prime is in a spot of it being a solid choice for a server full of mages. Aura has since become THE go-to anti magic tree, with shrug (no cc break) giving fixed magic def, spell shield, and the new fortress (push back and magic def given, based on amount of players pushed) as well as thwart now giving *up to* 5k dmg in a 3-stack shield, BUT 1 stack of shield is gone from the first hit, even if the hit is just 100 dmg, so basically 15k dmg max, or 3 serperate hits, based on stacks.

    The kicker... crit dmg. Crit dmg has become the new focus for must-have weapon gems, due to the increase in crit rate across the board, and the swelling of your main stat helping this, since theres no reason to split stats anymore (unless a plate dps). This means classes with songcraft (ebonsong**, spellsinger***, bladedancer**) are now FOTM, since they gain even more crit rate & dmg from songcraft, though I use shadehunter myself, to show friends thay it isnt a necessity (but it definitely hurts).

    The mobility issue isnt as bad these days, for sure, BUT now we have anti-target skills from shadowplay abyssal, and a basic skill in songcraft (its pretty busted) forcing anyone that isnt a godswhipping/whirlinding mad man to run at or away from you with blinders on, because they can't hit you with target skills for roughly 3-6 seconds.

    EA does decent dmg now, even against super tanks, you'll do at least 5 with a good weapon xD about 100-250 on the average over geared player (and dont forget you'll be critting 60-90% of the time)

    The ancestral skills for us are pretty lovely, mainly mist missile rain (our dodgeable, blockabe, evadeable cone godswhip) and flame concussive allowing us to use concussive instantly *wave backdrop causes this as well), tho it only silences now, which is less awesome, since most mages have like... 60% debuff reduction, making it only a good 1 second of silence vs a 3.5 second baseline. Gale charged bolt is a wonderful kiting tool too... if we werent in a meta where 1 unavoidable hit can finish you, so stick to basic charged.

    As for archers in general, we in a nice spot... but so is everyone who can stack crit dmg. You go from 1k dmg base hits, to 4k dmg crits... big numbers, boring gameplay. That's a small summary for ya! :> Hope this helps!!
    Pew
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  3. #3
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    First I want to thank you, your answers are amazing and full of details as always.

    Second I would like to ask you something more!

    So Primeval is still good since is more of an Anti-Mage, and since now we have more range that would be very easy (I remember Daggerspell/Enigmatist/Ecc with Fear/Sleep + Combo were a pain in Arena when we had pretty much the same Range), and Ebonsong is for max Damage possible... Does an Hybrid between the two like the Howler (Arc/Song/Aura) could work?

  4. #4
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    Hello,

    You won't be able to play Primeval as before, they changed all skills even passive, they even moved some in others arts.

    For exemple Miror Warp gone in Witchcraft. Shadow Step moved in Occultism.

    As old primeval you know that the mobility is everything.

    Still 10 arts but less choice.

    Check on Youtube, since 4.5 you won't be able to find recents videos from Primeval, only Ebonsong.

    Boring gameplay, no diversity for archery, Ebonsong or nothing.

    Nobody is complaining, good job XL games... The worst patch in my opinion.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kishoot View Post
    Hello,

    You won't be able to play Primeval as before, they changed all skills even passive, they even moved some in others arts.

    For exemple Miror Warp gone in Witchcraft. Shadow Step moved in Occultism.

    As old primeval you know that the mobility is everything.

    Still 10 arts but less choice.

    Check on Youtube, since 4.5 you won't be able to find recents videos from Primeval, only Ebonsong.

    Boring gameplay, no diversity for archery, Ebonsong or nothing.

    Nobody is complaining, good job XL games... The worst patch in my opinion.
    First off, no... ebon is FOTM because it is the easiest form of burst dmg. That does not mean any other archery spec is bad. You only lose 75% crit dmg *every 12 seconds* vs a songer, its a large amount, but not so huge anything else hits like a wet noodle (you also forget, that with STEADY SHOOTING, you gain 56 crit dmg permanently, until you deactivate the buff. And it has no downside effect against magesx outside of walking. Making a 70%+ magic dmg reduction, anti-sleep buff almost unfair against a glass mage).

    @Harvi: Howler does run song, though you'll lack the basic cheese of stealth and poison combos, you still have songs and anti sleep+ anti magic. :> and it's my pleasure to help! ^o^
    Pew
    <The Oracle God>
    ♤Lord of Halcyona♤


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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trusivraj View Post
    First off, no... ebon is FOTM because it is the easiest form of burst dmg. That does not mean any other archery spec is bad. You only lose 75% crit dmg *every 12 seconds* vs a songer, its a large amount, but not so huge anything else hits like a wet noodle (you also forget, that with STEADY SHOOTING, you gain 56 crit dmg permanently, until you deactivate the buff. And it has no downside effect against magesx outside of walking. Making a 70%+ magic dmg reduction, anti-sleep buff almost unfair against a glass mage).

    @Harvi: Howler does run song, though you'll lack the basic cheese of stealth and poison combos, you still have songs and anti sleep+ anti magic. :> and it's my pleasure to help! ^o^
    Ok, first and last argue with you, i don't have your time.
    On every forums we have a 2000+ top poster who know everything on everything, offcourse i believe you have a solid knowledge and helped people but your logic isn't perfect.

    You're telling me: "You ONLY lose 75% crit dmg *every 12 seconds* vs a songer, its a LARGE AMOUNT" you contradict yourself in the same sentence. It is ONLY or LARGE?
    So no problem because we have STEADY SHOOTING? Both archey spec have this skill.
    We are talking about PRIMEVAL and EBONSONG, why are you talking about STEADY SHOOTING? It's from archery.
    Ok why not, what is the point if i song while using STEADY SHOOTING?
    Compare what's is comparable.

    Ebonsong is not only the EASIEST burst dmg, it is also the BEST burst dmg.

    I bet Ebonsong will win against others archery spec.

    Explain me why 99% of archery are Ebonsong. Because "it is the easiest form of burst dmg"?
    No, because it offer a large tool palette and it is far above the rest.

    I agree on Primeval 4.5 is anti-mage but since when mage is the main problem for archery (even if some of them hit hard)? In the actual state of the game Primeval 4.5 is pretty useless.
    Show me your server full of mages to play Primeval 4.5 if we can still call this Primeval.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kishoot View Post
    Ok, first and last argue with you, i don't have your time.
    On every forums we have a 2000+ top poster who know everything on everything, offcourse i believe you have a solid knowledge and helped people but your logic isn't perfect.

    You're telling me: "You ONLY lose 75% crit dmg *every 12 seconds* vs a songer, its a LARGE AMOUNT" you contradict yourself in the same sentence. It is ONLY or LARGE?
    So no problem because we have STEADY SHOOTING? Both archey spec have this skill.
    We are talking about PRIMEVAL and EBONSONG, why are you talking about STEADY SHOOTING? It's from archery.
    Ok why not, what is the point if i song while using STEADY SHOOTING?
    Compare what's is comparable.

    Ebonsong is not only the EASIEST burst dmg, it is also the BEST burst dmg.

    I bet Ebonsong will win against others archery spec.

    Explain me why 99% of archery are Ebonsong. Because "it is the easiest form of burst dmg"?
    No, because it offer a large tool palette and it is far above the rest.

    I agree on Primeval 4.5 is anti-mage but since when mage is the main problem for archery (even if some of them hit hard)? In the actual state of the game Primeval 4.5 is pretty useless.
    Show me your server full of mages to play Primeval 4.5 if we can still call this Primeval.
    I'm sorry you're upset and alittle salty over the fact that I am one of those players that doesn't follow the meta. I play a shadehunter, and can still beat ebonsongs in a 1v1, with 10k gs to my near-full hiram 7k, and only a divine hiram bow vs their legendary T7s. Best part about what I'm telling you, is that I have video proof (goodluck sitting through hours of stream videos though, I'll make smaller cuts for everyone at some point.) I get one shot ALOT, sure, yet theres still many times when I pull off a nasty 2-0 due to them being unable to hit me (arch+occ accuracy debuffs mmmmm)

    First point: You rely on zeal, which is a 6 second buff, with a 12 second cd. In a 1v1, it gives a huge advantage, but it is still outplayable. The whole purpose of song is to blow your target up before it can get ahold of you. 9/10 archers I've ever come across can only archer when they can kill something before it can even react (terrible gameplay mechanics btw), but the moment they actually have to learn to use the movement buttons, they melt in seconds. Back to zeal... EVERY archer can achieve upwards of 210% crit dmg. Anything higher is just overkill, as with 200% crit dmg you're already hitting anything that crits by 3x its normal dmg. All you need is an epic hiram(not out yet) - divine+ erenor, and any archer can back drop > concussive their way to victory, so yes, 75% crit dmg isnt a necessity, no matter how much more dmg you deal, because your typical glass target is already 1-shot worthy at 200%.

    Point 2: Steady shooting is often an unnecessary risk for you to take, because you already have zeal (ontop of needing a set amount skills and passives within songcraft, to reach zeal in the first place) and the last thing you want to be doing is walking, having almost no survivability or control skills in your arsenal (outside of a very foolishly implemented instant aoe anti-target skill, which doesnt work on aoe like whirlwind slash and godswhip).

    Other archery classes make better use of steady shooting, because they have the utility to back it up, with Prime being one of the best, since mages get very minimal advantages to using it against them, and they have teleport and a second push back, and shadehunter having tons of control to pull it off without retaliation.

    Mages not a problem? What GOOD and/or GEARED mages have you fought, that you can honestly say arent a problem? They can godswhip wombo you faster than any missile rain could ever hope to achieve, and have the durability and control (through skills) to tank/outplay your initial burst and combo you right back. Thats one problem those that want to argue with me have, is they look at one side of the picture. There are mutliple views you put into winning/losing:
    Are they better geared?
    Are they geared correctly?
    Are they actually skilled? (Sad to say it, skills is minimal in this current meta, but it is still noticeable)
    Is my pc better?
    Is my ping better?
    Are they using skills specifically to counter me? ( BR DW passive)
    Etc. Etc.

    One person claiming something is easy, because you fought an **easy player** doesnt make it easy, it makes that specific person easy, same if you felt that person was difficult. If you lived through the dr days, most on my server would tell you I made drs look like nubs more often than not, and they would tell you how much harder it was to kill me, than 95% of any other under/overgeared archer. Sorry, Im patting myself on the back alittle.

    In closing, Prime has more INSTANT mobility against melees/mages, better survivability against mages, 3 push backs, a max 15k dmg shield, health boosting buff, anti sleep and lassitude, and 75% less crit dmg (steady shooting), with a 200% crit dmg base start (T3 gems not included)

    vs:

    Ebonsong having 75%(it actually might only be 50% LOL) more crit dmg (Steady zeal shooting), with a base of 200% starting, a shield disarm, doubletime, anti target aoe bulls-, and song stacks + a casted dps boon.

    Both deal dmg, one more than the other, but the other can live longer, which can often be the better choice overall.

    1v1 the ebon will mostlikely win against one another, since both lack any real hard cc (snare requires magic accuracy, just btw) but ebon has anti target (15m frontal range with a large hitbox)

    In multiple fights, however, with multiple other classes, prime stands a far better chance, having immunities to some commonly used tactics, like bubb>push> fall dmg, granted Ebon doesnt manage to 1shot their opponent ( 1 shot gameplay not intended, just btw). If you get nothing out of that, then I can only assume we'll have to agree to disagree my friend. Much love.

    P.S. My knowledge can never be perfect, I'm human. Allowing yourself to be wrong helps you learn more, than if you ever thought yourself right, or I wouldn't be where I am today. Ebon is the better dps pick, yes ofcoarse. *But it isn't better at everything.*
    Pew
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trusivraj View Post
    First off, no... ebon is FOTM because it is the easiest form of burst dmg. That does not mean any other archery spec is bad. You only lose 75% crit dmg *every 12 seconds* vs a songer, its a large amount, but not so huge anything else hits like a wet noodle (you also forget, that with STEADY SHOOTING, you gain 56 crit dmg permanently, until you deactivate the buff. And it has no downside effect against magesx outside of walking. Making a 70%+ magic dmg reduction, anti-sleep buff almost unfair against a glass mage).

    @Harvi: Howler does run song, though you'll lack the basic cheese of stealth and poison combos, you still have songs and anti sleep+ anti magic. :> and it's my pleasure to help! ^o^
    its better than it was but its still not that good. once u have damage... tanks get melted. u just can't take a hit period. fighting against mages is cancer because if u don't 3 hit them they just stun/silence 3 hit you. so its basically all about who 3 hits who first lol. mages have an advantage not being able to be blocked, parried, or evaded. rip the days on launch when mages were balanced and their spells could be evaded.
    hmm..

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by StrappedBunny View Post
    its better than it was but its still not that good. once u have damage... tanks get melted. u just can't take a hit period. fighting against mages is cancer because if u don't 3 hit them they just stun/silence 3 hit you. so its basically all about who 3 hits who first lol. mages have an advantage not being able to be blocked, parried, or evaded. rip the days on launch when mages were balanced and their spells could be evaded.
    Agreed, yet we still have mages on the forums, screaming "Please buff mages!!" xD makes me cry of laughter everytime. Prime stacking every mitigation buff mentioned in its kit (only 1 or 2 stacks on thwart) and getting off stalkers mark > concussive> steady shooting > 3x blazing > charged bolt, while theyre snared if you're lucky, should allow you to be tank enough, with a Leg t7 or better + T2-T3 crit gems, to burst them to death, whike they blow all their cds on you and you still have 40-60% hp left. (With your defenses starting around 50% mdef + shrug, spell shield, and all the other mumbo jumbo defensive buffs, you should have nearly 100% magic dmg reduction for roughly 3-4 seconds.)
    Pew
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  10. #10
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    I primarily play a stone arrow, love fighting me some ebonsongs. Not many guides or anything for them out there but i can put up some screenshots of my build when I'm not at work if anyone's interested.

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