+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 48

Thread: some magician set leather

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Harveaux View Post
    So even a Darkrunner/Blade Dancer/Executioner should go Cloth?

    I feel like that Leather have so many wasted Stats for a Mobile Melee Assassin (Evasion/Bow Range), at least Cloth give 3% Moviment Speed and Reduction for ANY kind of CC (If I'm not wrong any CC get reduced, right?)... And since Plate is going to get nerfed soon (Since we don't know how they will nerf it, I'm not going to risk it), the chooice is still between Leather and Cloth...

    I'm really thorned about it... What do you think?
    It's funny, but leather in most games sucks. The only thing ever really going for it is the fact you can't be easily "zerod out" in defenses, by defense pen stats. Going cloth as a melee is suicide, unless you plan to play a paladin with full defensive stats. Leather is really the only option here. I could argue cloth archers be a thing, but the movement speed and reduction isnt worth everything leather gives instead. Evasion is also VERY GOOD on anyone. It's the only stat that completely ignores physical dmg.
    Pew (Wynn/Kaylin)
    <The Shadehunting Master>
    ♤Lord of Halcyona♤


    Youtube Channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU..._as=subscriber
    Twitter:
    https://twitter.com/Trusivraj?lang=en
    Twitch Stream Channel:
    https://www.twitch.tv/trusivraj

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Trusivraj View Post
    It's funny, but leather in most games sucks. The only thing ever really going for it is the fact you can't be easily "zerod out" in defenses, by defense pen stats. Going cloth as a melee is suicide, unless you plan to play a paladin with full defensive stats. Leather is really the only option here. I could argue cloth archers be a thing, but the movement speed and reduction isnt worth everything leather gives instead. Evasion is also VERY GOOD on anyone. It's the only stat that completely ignores physical dmg.
    Doesn't P.Def get zero'd out by Armor Pen both on Cloth and Leather? I mean, now that the meta is shifting from Critical Damage to Armor Pen...
    You can reach 10k Armor Pen making both Cloth and Leather user pretty much naked.

    Also if you use Defence lunagem you reach 6k+ P.Def, that is for sure low, but not so distant from Leather... Doesn't people in Plate do the same thing with Magic Damage? But here at least you have a x0.2 in P.Def compared to a x0.0 in M.Def of Plate.

    I mean, something like that https://archeagecalculator.com/?a=k4805101&b=4

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Harveaux View Post
    Doesn't P.Def get zero'd out by Armor Pen both on Cloth and Leather? I mean, now that the meta is shifting from Critical Damage to Armor Pen...
    You can reach 10k Armor Pen making both Cloth and Leather user pretty much naked.

    Also if you use Defence lunagem you reach 6k+ P.Def, that is for sure low, but not so distant from Leather... Doesn't people in Plate do the same thing with Magic Damage? But here at least you have a x0.2 in P.Def compared to a x0.0 in M.Def of Plate.

    I mean, something like that https://archeagecalculator.com/?a=k4805101&b=4
    I actually built full def pen in everything at one point (Now currently switched to 2 crit dmg weaps, 1 pen), achieving 8700 (est) def pen, as an archer + 420 from costume stack. It is better than crit dmg UNTIL you realize that crit dmg can stack def pen much more easily than def pen is able to stack crit dmg. Def pen meta will not happen, outside of melee specs, because you can achieve about 5k def pen with max crit dmg gems ontop of it.

    So if you were to use a 6k dmg base, and factored in a 2.5x crit, subtracted by 28% (estimated defense reduction after 5k pen) of that total dmg

    V.S.

    6k dmg x 1.35 crit (estimated crit dmg, going full def pen in weapons) with 0% reduction afterwards, since you've zero'd them out, the crit dmg build (with 5k pen) STILL does far more dmg, because the def pen build lacks the crit dmg to compete.

    Even using steady shooting 56% crit dmg buff, 1.91x(def pen build) and 0% reduction will lose to 3.0x (crit dmg build + 5k pen) with 28% reduction.

    Geared leather, and even some geared shield clothies, surpass 9k def at that, especially if they have defense in costumes, so if you dont zero them out to begin with, D. pen loses outright.
    Pew (Wynn/Kaylin)
    <The Shadehunting Master>
    ♤Lord of Halcyona♤


    Youtube Channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU..._as=subscriber
    Twitter:
    https://twitter.com/Trusivraj?lang=en
    Twitch Stream Channel:
    https://www.twitch.tv/trusivraj

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Trusivraj View Post
    I actually built full def pen in everything at one point (Now currently switched to 2 crit dmg weaps, 1 pen), achieving 8700 (est) def pen, as an archer + 420 from costume stack. It is better than crit dmg UNTIL you realize that crit dmg can stack def pen much more easily than def pen is able to stack crit dmg. Def pen meta will not happen, outside of melee specs, because you can achieve about 5k def pen with max crit dmg gems ontop of it.

    So if you were to use a 6k dmg base, and factored in a 2.5x crit, subtracted by 28% (estimated defense reduction after 5k pen) of that total dmg

    V.S.

    6k dmg x 1.35 crit (estimated crit dmg, going full def pen in weapons) with 0% reduction afterwards, since you've zero'd them out, the crit dmg build (with 5k pen) STILL does far more dmg, because the def pen build lacks the crit dmg to compete.

    Even using steady shooting 56% crit dmg buff, 1.91x(def pen build) and 0% reduction will lose to 3.0x (crit dmg build + 5k pen) with 28% reduction.

    Geared leather, and even some geared shield clothies, surpass 9k def at that, especially if they have defense in costumes, so if you dont zero them out to begin with, D. pen loses outright.
    Well I'm personally speaking only about Melee Classes so everything I say or ask is related to them...

    Anyway, since you seems like one of the most competent AA Player (Yeah, I saw you a lot in the Forum and you answer are always on point), I would like to ask a thing.

    Jahlon from Paradox Gaming Network made a research about Def Pen vs Critical Damage, and found out that if you are against someone with enough Resilience (That since Hiram Gear pretty much everybody have it in huge numbers), Armor Pen become better for various reason (Also Damage)...

    Here you can find everything https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP4Q8_3GQ8A...

    I would love to hear what do you think about it.

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    254
    Quote Originally Posted by Trusivraj View Post
    It's funny, but leather in most games sucks. The only thing ever really going for it is the fact you can't be easily "zerod out" in defenses, by defense pen stats. Going cloth as a melee is suicide, unless you plan to play a paladin with full defensive stats. Leather is really the only option here. I could argue cloth archers be a thing, but the movement speed and reduction isnt worth everything leather gives instead. Evasion is also VERY GOOD on anyone. It's the only stat that completely ignores physical dmg.
    Zephyres on Aria has a cloth melee set. Built a bit strange imo since he gives up some resilience for - melee dmg, but I'm assuming it works for him. He's always been a good player, and I'm sure he has math to back up his choice (he's always been very calculating as well). Haven't queued arena much recently due to irl issues, so I'm not sure how it performs in actuality.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Harveaux View Post
    Well I'm personally speaking only about Melee Classes so everything I say or ask is related to them...

    Anyway, since you seems like one of the most competent AA Player (Yeah, I saw you a lot in the Forum and you answer are always on point), I would like to ask a thing.

    Jahlon from Paradox Gaming Network made a research about Def Pen vs Critical Damage, and found out that if you are against someone with enough Resilience (That since Hiram Gear pretty much everybody have it in huge numbers), Armor Pen become better for various reason (Also Damage)...

    Here you can find everything https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP4Q8_3GQ8A...

    I would love to hear what do you think about it.
    I watched that too, and he was pretty spot on with crit dmg vs resil vs def pen, but again, Def Pen IS the better option, UNTIL you come to realize that def pen still needs crit dmg to actually be better than **Smart** crit dmg builds, because crit dmg builds leech off of defense pen themselves, without sacrificing any crit dmg. Defense pen Has to sacrifice another dmg source, to be better than said dmg source (crit dmg builds), while the opposing dmg source (crit dmg builds) can just steal more dmg from def pen for free (accessories/Undies), making even resilience a non factor for crit dmg builds (who added def pen for free-without losing crit dmg).

    EDIT:
    I tend to use a base 6000 dmg value (also experience, as I've switched gems and watched my dmg logs), and with that value I factor in how much crit dmg each build would have, which is about 135% crit dmg & 9000 defense pen for defense pen builds V.S. 265% crit dmg & 5000 defense pen for crit dmg builds.

    NOW factor in a 9k def leather character (D.P. 0% reduction VS C.D. 52% reduction).... If each were to crit, you have: D.P. = 8100 vs C.D. = 15900, THEN you applies reduction ( and crit dmg NOT having def pen)... defense pen wins, with D.P. = 8100 vs C.D = 7155. NOW factor in C.D. with 5000 D.P. which leaves your leather 9k def target at roughly 34% reduction... C.D. wins with a whopping 10494!! Even if you tried to account for resilience, that applies to defense pen's crit dmg too, nullifying any dmg factors to it, because it will still be less overall crit dmg than the C.D. build.

    P.S. Thank you for the compliment! :>
    Pew (Wynn/Kaylin)
    <The Shadehunting Master>
    ♤Lord of Halcyona♤


    Youtube Channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU..._as=subscriber
    Twitter:
    https://twitter.com/Trusivraj?lang=en
    Twitch Stream Channel:
    https://www.twitch.tv/trusivraj

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by emellgee View Post
    Zephyres on Aria has a cloth melee set. Built a bit strange imo since he gives up some resilience for - melee dmg, but I'm assuming it works for him. He's always been a good player, and I'm sure he has math to back up his choice (he's always been very calculating as well). Haven't queued arena much recently due to irl issues, so I'm not sure how it performs in actuality.
    Melee base skill dmg is broken, allowing it to be "successful" in any situation, but its *not AS* successful as an actual leather/plate BR. Cloth Br is just a dick wave against mages (who are the least played class = least dmg to worry about, from Kadum perspective), while probably having a DW for archers, leaving only other BRs to really fear, while killing all the ranged opposition with relative ease. 1v1 arena, archers will still have a hard time with it, not because of the cloth, but because of DW parry/shield block + broken melee skill dmg. (Who needs physical tankiness, if they die in 1 shot/catch anyways?) Unless he's "% reduced dmg" stacking, which is also an unbalanced defensive stat, I just dont see cloth keeping him alive anywhere outside of a favorable arena matchup, via Archers and mages.
    Pew (Wynn/Kaylin)
    <The Shadehunting Master>
    ♤Lord of Halcyona♤


    Youtube Channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU..._as=subscriber
    Twitter:
    https://twitter.com/Trusivraj?lang=en
    Twitch Stream Channel:
    https://www.twitch.tv/trusivraj

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Trusivraj View Post
    I watched that too, and he was pretty spot on with crit dmg vs resil vs def pen, but again, Def Pen IS the better option, UNTIL you come to realize that def pen still needs crit dmg to actually be better than **Smart** crit dmg builds, because crit dmg builds leech off of defense pen themselves, without sacrificing any crit dmg. Defense pen Has to sacrifice another dmg source, to be better than said dmg source (crit dmg builds), while the opposing dmg source (crit dmg builds) can just steal more dmg from def pen for free (accessories/Undies), making even resilience a non factor for crit dmg builds (who added def pen for free-without losing crit dmg).

    EDIT:
    I tend to use a base 6000 dmg value (also experience, as I've switched gems and watched my dmg logs), and with that value I factor in how much crit dmg each build would have, which is about 135% crit dmg & 9000 defense pen for defense pen builds V.S. 265% crit dmg & 5000 defense pen for crit dmg builds.

    NOW factor in a 9k def leather character (D.P. 0% reduction VS C.D. 52% reduction).... If each were to crit, you have: D.P. = 8100 vs C.D. = 15900, THEN you applies reduction ( and crit dmg NOT having def pen)... defense pen wins, with D.P. = 8100 vs C.D = 7155. NOW factor in C.D. with 5000 D.P. which leaves your leather 9k def target at roughly 34% reduction... C.D. wins with a whopping 10494!! Even if you tried to account for resilience, that applies to defense pen's crit dmg too, nullifying any dmg factors to it, because it will still be less overall crit dmg than the C.D. build.

    P.S. Thank you for the compliment! :>
    But the thing is, since 10k Resilience is what literally everybody aim for (With some people with 12k+), that mean that 99% of the time against someone at least decent Geared Player, 140% of your Critical Damage is wasted (Since 10k Resilience remove a fixed amount of 140% and is not a % of what the player have)...

    If you build Full Pen you don't waste anything, and when you Crit you will anyway do the minimum 50% more damage (Since Resilience can't go lower than that) with more Def Pen and no wasted Stats...

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Harveaux View Post
    But the thing is, since 10k Resilience is what literally everybody aim for (With some people with 12k+), that mean that 99% of the time against someone at least decent Geared Player, 140% of your Critical Damage is wasted (Since 10k Resilience remove a fixed amount of 140% and is not a % of what the player have)...

    If you build Full Pen you don't waste anything, and when you Crit you will anyway do the minimum 50% more damage (Since Resilience can't go lower than that) with more Def Pen and no wasted Stats...
    Here's the thing... Anyone with that much res is most likely 13-14k and you aren't going to kill them anyways. That being said, I've fought many 13-14ks in both arena and open world, and my triple blazing arrows (+56% crit dmg buff combo) still crit them for 5-7k each arrow.. that's with res in costumes, boots, and undies, as well as lunastones. Meanwhile, when I was full def pen, my crits only hit for 3-4k, despite having nearly 0 reduction to the dmg, because I had no crit dmg to make those crits hurt. Resilience is an important stat, but with the recent nerf to it, when it made almost everyone do no dmg prior lol, it isn't giving the crit reduction you think it is.

    Again, you're welcome to try it for your self. I did more dmg with full defense pen, building my T3 def pen gems from T1/T2 crit dmg, but I now do significantly more dmg with 2 T3 crit dmg weapons and 1 T3 def pen weap (budget gemmed, cuz I have other things to work on atm, should be max crit dmg with 5k pen.) I sit at 210.8% crit dmg and 6108 def pen atm, and I couldn't be more satisfied with my dmg. I have a few platers that can tell you how shocked they were at the dmg I dealt to them too. Defense specs still kick my Ash tho. (Archers/shadow/occult) xD

    I have pvp vids of all these players, 10-14k, plate/cloth/leather that I'll be posting to my YouTube soon.
    Pew (Wynn/Kaylin)
    <The Shadehunting Master>
    ♤Lord of Halcyona♤


    Youtube Channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU..._as=subscriber
    Twitter:
    https://twitter.com/Trusivraj?lang=en
    Twitch Stream Channel:
    https://www.twitch.tv/trusivraj

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Trusivraj View Post
    Here's the thing... Anyone with that much res is most likely 13-14k and you aren't going to kill them anyways. That being said, I've fought many 13-14ks in both arena and open world, and my triple blazing arrows (+56% crit dmg buff combo) still crit them for 5-7k each arrow.. that's with res in costumes, boots, and undies, as well as lunastones. Meanwhile, when I was full def pen, my crits only hit for 3-4k, despite having nearly 0 reduction to the dmg, because I had no crit dmg to make those crits hurt. Resilience is an important stat, but with the recent nerf to it, when it made almost everyone do no dmg prior lol, it isn't giving the crit reduction you think it is.

    Again, you're welcome to try it for your self. I did more dmg with full defense pen, building my T3 def pen gems from T1/T2 crit dmg, but I now do significantly more dmg with 2 T3 crit dmg weapons and 1 T3 def pen weap (budget gemmed, cuz I have other things to work on atm, should be max crit dmg with 5k pen.) I sit at 210.8% crit dmg and 6108 def pen atm, and I couldn't be more satisfied with my dmg. I have a few platers that can tell you how shocked they were at the dmg I dealt to them too. Defense specs still kick my Ash tho. (Archers/shadow/occult) xD

    I have pvp vids of all these players, 10-14k, plate/cloth/leather that I'll be posting to my YouTube soon.

    Sorry for the late reply Trusivraj!

    So, since math is not an opinion and I'm a Healer so I have literally zero bias in that argument (A lot Players tends to have some bias in what they are playing), I made a bit of calculations on the Topic already viewed by Paradox, and here is why Defence Penetration is in most cases better against Geared Players...

    First, we need to consider that if a Build is better against people with 12k Resilience (So "High" Geared Players) and allow it to kill them better, means that you have enough Equip/Gear (So Damage) to Kill a Player less Geared even if the Build is less effective against "Low" Geared Players.

    After that little premise let's start with the Math:

    We know that every 1000 Resilience it decrease 14% of Critical Damage AND 5%/7% Critical Rate (It's still unclear if it's 7%, but let's take the minimum possible at 5%).
    That mean that when someone reach 10k Resilience you decrease 140% Critical Damage and 50% Critical Rate.
    This is translated that for having any kind of advantage on Critical Damage you NEED to exceed the 190% threshold(140% + the 50% Base)... This without taking in consideration that someone in Full Hiram full Gemmed (That at this point is the Soft-Cap for being relevant in this Game) can reach WITHOUT ANY PROBLEM 12k Resilience (Indeed is like 11k Gear Score, not 13/14k), increasing the number to 220% (So 170% Critical Damage decrease) and 60% less Critical Rate.

    Now using REAL NUMBERS all calculated with everything that is avaiable to a Player (So is NOT a guess, this is what Players WILL have as Stats at this point of Gear), taking in consideration T1 +5 Gems and Epic T3 Hiram Gear (Obviusly that will scale up if you use Higher-Tier Gear/Gems, but the Math at the base is still the same):

    I will take in consideration 2H Builds, because thanks to the 5% Bonus Skill Damage and the higher Base-Damage, in any case or build it will result no matter what in more damage for a Melee Spec... But that DOES NOT mean that this does not apply to Dual Wielding Builds, that results are pretty much the same (So it's pretty much the same even for Archers that use DW), as you will see at the end of the calculations...

    A 2H Melee Player full Defence Penetration with the Puncture Passive can reach 12k Defence Penetration (If it's DW he reach 13k, but with 2H 50% of the time the Shielded Value is halved, so this is also to take in consideration) and 100% Critical Rate.

    A 2H Melee Player full Melee Critical Damage reach 160% Critical Damage (210% Total, taking in consideration the 50% not reduceable, would be 235% if he was DW, but as you will see after, it does not really make a difference), can reach at best 6k Defence Penetration with Puncture Passive (3k without Puncture), meaning you reduce the Physical Defence to 5k (Counting the 11k mentioned before) meaning they take 40% less Damage (Instead of 60%) and 100% Critical Rate

    A FULL GEARED Epic T3 Hiram Set Gemmed (T1 +5) have 12k Resilience meaning it remove 170% Critical Damage (Meaning you are down -10% if you build Full Critical Damage)/remove 60% Critical Rate and 11k Physical Defence (That mean you do 60% more Damage every Attack if you zero out his defence).

    Ok now, let's bring in some numbers.

    For the sake of numbers and making the best case scenario for Melee Critical Damage Build lets say that both Build will have a 50% Critical Rate (Instead of only 40%) after the Resilience Reduction take place:

    Let's take 100 Damage against 11k Physical Defence (60% Damage Reduction) as example (Since other Damage Multipliers/Reducers works multiplicatively and does not change the proportion of the result) using two Attacks in three scenario: One Crit, Two Crits & Zero Crits.

    Defence Penetration Build:

    (0% Damage Reduction from Physical Defence)


    1) 100 Damage (Non-Crit) + 150 Damage (Crit) = 250

    2) 150 Damage (Crit) + 150 Damage (Crit) = 300

    3) 100 Damage (Non-Crit) + 100 Damage (Non-Crit) = 200 Damage


    Melee Critical Damage Build, now it get a bit complicated, because right now you are -10% Critical Damage from the Resilience of the Enemy, so you would need 10%+ more Critical Damage to even make use of your Critical Damage, let's say that Every Skill you have have some sort of Critical Damage Bonus Built-in, take a 60% for EVERY SKILL you have (It's NOT like that in a real case scenario, but as said, I'm stretching any number to advantage the Critical Damage User)... So you end up with 50% Critical Damage, for a total of 100% (Counting the base 50%):

    (40% Damage Reduction from Physical Defence)


    1) 60 Damage (Non-Crit) + 120 Damage (Crit) = 180 Damage

    2) 120 Damage (Crit) + 120 Damage (Crit) = 240 Damage

    3) 60 Damage (Non-Crit) + 60 Damage (Non-Crit) = 120 Damage



    As we can see Defence Penetration win by a large margin (A margin so large that even increasing the Critical Damage in the Calculation from 100% to 150% would not be enough to beat Defence Penetration (And take in consideration I already added 60% just for helping out the Critical Damage Build)) for anything up to 12/13k Physical Defence (And it would still win even with higher Physical Defences since the margin is so large), and that's for few reasons:

    1) It does not relay completely on Critical Chance to do Damage, so since Resilience also decrease Crit Chance, every Hit will still matter even if you don't Crit.

    2) You need so much Critical Damage to make it doing something, that for the most part is a wasted Stat until you reach an enormous high threshold, while Defence Penetration is useful from the start.

    3) If someone do not have enough Physical Defence to make full use of your Armor Penetration, it means that probably will die anyway with the base Damage alone since his Defence is zeroed out, but since even Cloth do have access to Resilience everything discussed before about Critical Damage still apply.

    4) Making a Hybrid Defence Penetration/Critical Damage Build, will not work (Or better, it could work only against Cloth-Users without a Shield if they don't have enough Resilience, but that's it), because as ArcheAge always taught us and the math back this up, to make any Stat or Bonus being really relevant you need to fully Stack it (Aside from Attack Speed that have an awful Diminishing Return), making a Hybrid would mean increasing drastically the Damage Reduction from Physical Defence of your Target (Since the Curve is not linear) and Increasing the threshold needed for Critical Damage to being relevant, making both Stats less effective and making your Character do less overall Damage.

    5) I was very generous on Critical Damage Bonus on Skills (Supposing every Skills you use have always a 60% Bonus Critical Damage, thing that is not true for sure) and in Critical Rate (Since 12k Resilience decrease more than 50%) but it still end up losing.

    6) Focusing on Full Defence Penetration open up two Bonus Slots on Costume/Undergarment, not really a huge point but could make you more Tanky and it was worth mentioning it.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts