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Thread: [Guide] Defence Penetration vs Critical Damage (Also 2H vs DW)

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zamar View Post
    i never heard of that formula for calculating res,when i asked in game in the past i always got the answer of -1000res reduce 10.5%/11%- and i know that recently they made res stronger dont know how much
    what i know for sure is that i have with two chest pieces one plate with spirit and one plate with intelligence both divine but the one with intelligence is full gemmed and the one with spirit have zero gems i have like 140 crit dam and 2800 dpen on my archer alt and i deal the sam exact damage with both chests shouldnt be different if it decrease the crit dam in %?in total i have 9800 res with int and 7100 with spirit
    edit> i just spammed endless for like 10 min the min damage was 581 and the max 604 with crit 867 min and 890 max these min and max appeared multiple times in both chest pieces is it normal? if i look at it the combat log the number do repeat and are the same for both chests
    You never heard it because it's not a correct Formula and nobody ever used it, it's a made up formula by a random person.

    Speaking about your Damage... It is normal, and is how it works, in both cases (9800 Resilience and 7100 Resilience) your Critical Damage get Reduced from 140% (90% + Base 50%) to only Base 50% ( [90-(14x9.8) = -47]: Since you go negative, you only deal the Base 50% Critical Damage / [90-(14x7.1) = -9]: Since you still go negative, you still only deal the Base 50% Critical Damage) so this is why your Damage is exactly the same with both Armor Pieces.

    And no it's not a Multiplicative % Reduction, is just some guy that want to be a Internet Hipster and like to try to be different, it's normal, it always happen in any Forum Threads, people always look for attention and I gave him too much myself, indeed I stopped answering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silencium View Post
    The crit rate reduction from Resilence was calculated a long ago on russian servers by some players with all formulas. I took a little time to translate just a quick graph to reveal the crit dmg and crit rate reduction from fixed amount of resilence.

    They also shared all formulas and even some Excel tables to put, for example, some amount of Def pen or Crit dmg and get the final amount of dmg from some skill. I'm a bit lazy to translate it also but maybe i'll share it after.

    Also few words about Def pen vs Crit dmg. Without getting into some formulas and hard math. If you are using 2h, def pen has more profits for you. Mainly because you can't really reach the required minimum of crit dmg with 2h. Of course you can go with Ayanad set for melee, for example, make an eternal weapon for additional gem slots but those people already know what they want from their character.
    Then you get some defence reduction debuffs (critical discord which gonna be buffed also, charms with songs, melee passives) which can change the game too.

    At least till the update with buffed 2h gems i'd recommend to go def pen with 2h. Even knowing it gonna be boosted after. In reality the dmg difference between def pen and crit dmg is low against leather set or cloth with a shield.
    Who would have thought! That is incredibile! It's like it has been tested for years! Even by me before creating that Thread!

    Joke aside, thank you Silencium.

    In any case, let the ignorant stay ignorant, if people want to think differently and being wrong, not really a problem for anyone, they are in the loss.

  2. #32
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    Alright, I'll go test resilience again, let me know when you want to acknowledge that your 'testing' screwed up how it dealt with fixed damage reduction, amongst god knows what else. I guess getting 'exact' answers was by luck?

  3. #33
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    Interest read, thank you for sharing.

    Not sure if I missed it, but you said max crit dmg is calculated after the reduction, what about crit rate? The cap is also calculated after the reduction, meaning its wise to still go above 100%?
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  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollolol View Post
    That doesn't seem correct to me. Maybe it is but that would mean that all the lower level people that hit my lvl 39 have sufficiently worse gear than the high lvl people that hit me.

    It's really noticeable when higher lvl people are hitting me. When I check the people who are hurting me they are always high lvl. Correlation is not causation so it's possible that they are high lvl because they hit hard

    I'm not particularly abnormally geared. Mostly T3 Epic Hiram plate with 2 pieces T4 Mythic (Pants + chest with gems). No shield (dual wield).
    >____> can't believe I have to actually explain this because you didn't read patch notes. There was a safety feature put in place on level 40 and below so that level 55 and ancestral players couldn't 1 shot them. So if you hit these targets as a higher level all of your damage is reduced to smurf levels. AKA stop ganking noobs.
    Truth:


    Trion and XL games hates everything I say because its the truth and stings like fire.
    Exposing the weaknesses in your circuit would send most to react in a way to fix the chain.
    Instead we get to see an awkward teen afraid of its flaws hiding them under the rug.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Harveaux View Post
    We will eventually get everything that is on Korea, but the problem is not Korea or Koreans... The problem is when people bring them up and make up things or create false statements saying "Koreans said that!"/"Koreans did that!" when it is completely not true and they only want to add a Non-Existent Autoritarian Source to support what they are saying... That's the only problem


    Anyway, you deal zero damage in PvE with a Defence Penetration Build compared to a Critical Damage Build, so yeah, it will be hard if you do a lot of PvE/Dungeon/Grinding, but if you have really good Weapon (Like a Mythic T4 Hiram) you can still sustain yourself, but nothing compared to a Critical Damage Build.

    For a more precise answer you will lose exactly the % of your Critical Damage So if with a Critical Damage Build you have a total of 250% Critical Damage, you will deal 200% less Damage.
    Might wanna factor in mobs in west hiram and east hiram have defense that scales up with east hiram being the higher value. I'd wager the basic mobs have about 4.5k defense, and the higher mobs are probably about 5000. West hiram mobs seem to have something close to 4000. (the amount of penetration you need before you stop seeing (Absorbed) on the mob.

    And yes defense pen is absolute trash in pve but only up to a point. it helps shift that absorbed damage out, but crit damage is huge in pve since most mobs will never have enough mitigation outside of an active ability to really stop anything. AKA the mobs in east hiram with the different shield actives...can't be broken with defense pen....
    Truth:


    Trion and XL games hates everything I say because its the truth and stings like fire.
    Exposing the weaknesses in your circuit would send most to react in a way to fix the chain.
    Instead we get to see an awkward teen afraid of its flaws hiding them under the rug.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by MiroH View Post
    I need to see numbers ingame with staff 2h magic def pen alot of people on my server think crit damage is better for a staff user but the math tells me other wise. Ill make a staff and test it Im sure some people in here have tested it ingame if you have please comment.
    A staff user with def pen is pretty melty on targets in pvp, trash in pve....extra emphasis on trash in pve. But with pen on a staff, assuming you are built full INT your pve damage starts to align heavily with your pvp damage. And you no longer have target limits where you have to stop and go, (oh well this guy is cloth better not focus them) you just pop them like any other target and GG. My personal opinion is that pen would work better on staff than dual wield due to the simple extra bonus damage and shield pen values on 2h buff. Again going for a pen build you focus on RAW damage gains not rng crit. So boosters like raw skill damage are insane, and boosters like % flat attack from ghost pet and warrior wrists etc are insane.
    Truth:


    Trion and XL games hates everything I say because its the truth and stings like fire.
    Exposing the weaknesses in your circuit would send most to react in a way to fix the chain.
    Instead we get to see an awkward teen afraid of its flaws hiding them under the rug.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Andromeda Delux View Post
    A staff user with def pen is pretty melty on targets in pvp, trash in pve....extra emphasis on trash in pve. But with pen on a staff, assuming you are built full INT your pve damage starts to align heavily with your pvp damage. And you no longer have target limits where you have to stop and go, (oh well this guy is cloth better not focus them) you just pop them like any other target and GG. My personal opinion is that pen would work better on staff than dual wield due to the simple extra bonus damage and shield pen values on 2h buff. Again going for a pen build you focus on RAW damage gains not rng crit. So boosters like raw skill damage are insane, and boosters like % flat attack from ghost pet and warrior wrists etc are insane.
    Even on a Full Defence Penetration Build you still focus on getting 100% Critical Rate, without Crits (And their 50% free non-reduceable Critical Damage), Defence Penetration is simply bad compared to a Critical Damage Build.
    What made Full Defence Penetration Build so good is indeed that now we have a non-reduceable 50% Critical Damage, without that it would be mediocre, like it was in the past.
    So no, you still focus on Critical Rate for dealing serious damage, even if obviusly you deal more Damage compared to a Critical Damage Build with Non-Crit Attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goethe View Post
    Interest read, thank you for sharing.

    Not sure if I missed it, but you said max crit dmg is calculated after the reduction, what about crit rate? The cap is also calculated after the reduction, meaning its wise to still go above 100%?
    It's not "Calculated after the Reduction", the Cap for Critical Damage is 300% and everything above that is always lost.

    For Critical Rate, the Cap should be 100%, but right now it's not the case, we don't know if it's bugged or intended to work like that, but in any case, FOR NOW, you can Over-Stack Critical Rate... So if you have 125% Critical Rate, and the Resilience reduce it by 25%, you still have 100% Critical Rate...

    Hope to have given a good explanation.

  8. #38
    Senior Member MiroH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harveaux View Post
    Even on a Full Defence Penetration Build you still focus on getting 100% Critical Rate, without Crits (And their 50% free non-reduceable Critical Damage), Defence Penetration is simply bad compared to a Critical Damage Build.
    What made Full Defence Penetration Build so good is indeed that now we have a non-reduceable 50% Critical Damage, without that it would be mediocre, like it was in the past.
    So no, you still focus on Critical Rate for dealing serious damage, even if obviusly you deal more Damage compared to a Critical Damage Build with Non-Crit Attacks.



    It's not always "Calculated after the Reduction", that work ONLY for Skills that have a Critical Damage Bonus (Like Precision Strike), I indeed tested the scenario mentioned in the Main Post, had someone with 5k Resilience (70% Critical Damage Reduction) and hitted him with 300% Critical Damage, the Damage of Precision Strike (That have 70% Critical Damage Bonus) was still 300%.

    But remember that you can't go past 300% Critical Damage (Indeed even in the Character Sheet if you have more than 300% it still show 300%), so that ONLY apply to Skills that have a Critical Damage Bonus, you can't Over-Stack Critical Damage, so if for example you have 320% Critical Damage, that 20% is lost, and is not calculated after the reduction.

    For Critical Rate, the Cap should be 100%, but right now it's not the case, we don't know if it's bugged or intended to work like that, but in any case, FOR NOW, you can Over-Stack Critical Rate... So if you have 125% Critical Rate, and the Resilience reduce it by 25%, you still have 100% Critical Rate...

    Hope to have given a good explanation.
    So you recommend just going staff with def pen/crit rate and int?

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by MiroH View Post
    So you recommend just going staff with def pen/crit rate and int?
    If you go FULL Defence Penetration, yes

    I don't recommend any Build in particular, I just strongly advise to use DW if you go Critical Damage and 2H if you go Full Defence Penetration (But if you are an Archer don't obsolutely go 2H even in Defence Penetration Build, still go DW).
    Both build are strong and there isn't a better one, both have pros and cons based on the situation.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harveaux View Post
    Both build are strong and there isn't a better one, both have pros and cons based on the situation.
    I think that's the bottom line of this thread, and it seems like some people can't wrap their head around that. Great work, btw.
    "You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw." - Bill Watterson

    Quote Originally Posted by Papillon View Post
    Archeage is not a PvP game.

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