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Thread: [Guide] Defence Penetration vs Critical Damage (Also 2H vs DW)

  1. #1

    [Guide] Defence Penetration vs Critical Damage (Also 2H vs DW)

    Hi guys, I'm Harvest from the Jakar EU Server.

    I already made a lot of Posts about that Topic inside this Forum or Reddit, but I think would be good to have a dedicated Thread to make it simplier and easier for people to find an answer about that.


    Everybody asked that at least one time, which is better? Defence Penetration or Critical Damage?

    We should start explaining some Basics to make everything easier when we go deep on explaining things:

    1) The Formula for Defence is: Defence / (Defence + 7900).
    2) After the last changes to Resilience, that Stat decrease Critical Damage by 14% every 1k (It also decrease the Critical Rate, but the precise number is still unknow, probably 3/4% every 1k). 1. (Also remember that Resilience does not suffer from any kind of Diminishing Returns and DOES NOT have a Cap, the only Cap is the amount that can be reached, better explaining on point 5)
    3) In the next few Patch there will be two changes: Resilience will be nerfed by a rateo of 1.3 to 1.2, that means that after these Patch Resilience will reduce Critical Damage by 12.9% every 1k (Instead of 14%) and 2H Gems will increase their Stat Value from 1.25 of a 1H Gem to 1.5 of a 1H Gem. (So calculations will change a bit)
    4) Critical Damage can't go below 50% and the Damage Cap is 300% but that Cap is calculated AFTER the Resilience Reduction (That mean that if for example you have 300% Critical Damage, and your opponent reduce your Critical Damage by 70%, your Precision Strike (That have a 70% Critical Damage Bonus) will still deal 300% (300% - 70% from Resilience = 230% / 230% + 70% Precision Strike Bonus = 300%).
    5) Right now, the maximum amount of Resilience reachable is 13k with Mythic Hiram Equip and will become 14k with Eternal Hiram Equip. (Decent Geared Players fluctuate between 10k to 12k, but this number will go higher the more the time goes by)


    Ok, these are the Basics that everybody need to know and understand if we want to move forward.


    Before we start with the math, we still need to make clear some things up, so we don't fall for traps that a lot of people bring up a lot of times.

    1) Toughness and % Damage Reduction do not matter, since both the Damage that come from Critical Damage and Defence Penetration get equally reduced by that % amount... So these Stats are not needed to make a comparison about CD and DP.

    2) A lot of the Attack Damage that you get comes from Items that are not your Weapon (Accessories, Armor & Costume/Undergaments), so you CAN'T make a direct comparison only using the DPS of a 2H and 1H Weapon, you need to create the SAME Build and only switch the Weapons between two equally powerful 2H and DW and make a calculation with the Numbers that are given.

    3) The test will proceed like that: Every Build will have a Damage Calculation for a Crit and a Non-Crit and we will do multiple Tests, against a Target with 12k Defence and 22k Defence and we will go through different amounts of Resilience (10k, 11k, 12k, 13k and 14k).

    5) We will use as Build a Full Hiram Epic T3 with T3 +5 Gems, since is not on either extremes. (The math behind it will be still the same even on higher Gear Scores, and it will more or less scale linearly).

    6) As Attack Speed we will use the counterpart of the Weapons, so if we use a Katana (1.0 Attack Speed) for DW, we will use a Nodachi (1.1 Attack Speed) as 2H for the Damage Calculation... If you want to do the test for an Axe (1.1 Attack Speed) and Greataxe (1.2 Attack Speed) just add 0.1 in the Damage Formula that will appear later.


    Let's start with the math.




    Since Resilience does not matter for Defence Penetration, we only need to test the two Defences (12k and 22k)
    DW Defence Penetration Build (https://archeagecalculator.com/?a=a4727126&b=7):

    1484 Attack Damage & 9k Defence Penetration


    Damage = 1484x1.04 = 1543
    (0.04 comes from the x2 2% Lunafrost, we need to include them since the 2H Bonus give 5% Skill Damage)

    Non Crit Damage = 1543

    Crit Damage = 1543x1.5 = 2314


    12k Defence = Reduced to 3k (0 with Puncture Passive)

    3k Defence = 27.5% Damage Reduction

    Non Crit = 1543x0.725 = 1189

    Crit = 2314x0.725 = 1677

    0k Defence = 0% Damage Reduction

    Non Crit = 1543x1= 1543

    Crit = 2314x1= 2314


    22k Defence = Reduced to 13k (10k with Pucture Passive)

    13k Defence = 62% Reduction

    Non Crit = 1543x0.38 = 552

    Crit = 2314x0.38 = 879

    10k Defence = 56% Reduction

    Non Crit = 1543x0.44 = 679

    Crit = 2314x0.44 = 1018




    2H Defence Penetration Build (https://archeagecalculator.com/?a=b0619126&b=7):

    1656 Attack Damage & 7.5k Defence Penetration


    Damage = 1656x1.18 = 1954
    (0.08 comes from the 3% Lunafrost and 5% 2H Equip Bonus / 0.1 comes from 10% bonus from 1.1 Attack Speed)

    Non Crit Damage = 1954

    Crit Damage = 1954x1.5 = 2931


    12k Defence = Reduced to 4.5k (1.5k with Puncture Passive)

    4.5k Defence = 36.5% Damage Reduction

    Non Crit = 1954x0.635 = 1241

    Crit = 2931x0.635 = 1861

    1.5k Defence = 16% Damage Reduction

    Non Crit = 1954x0.84 = 1641

    Crit = 2931x0.84 = 2445


    22k Defence = Reduced to 14.5k (11.5k with Pucture Passive)

    14.5k Defence = 64,5% Reduction

    Non Crit = 1954x0.355 = 694

    Crit = 2931x0.355 = 1040

    11.5k Defence = 56% Reduction

    Non Crit = 1954x0.40 = 781

    Crit = 2931x0.40 = 1172




    Since Critical Melee Builds all have Abilities or Passive that increase Critical Damage (Like Battle Focus, Delyrium Stacks or Steady Shooting) I will add 45% to create the best case scenario for a Critical Damage Build (Even if most of the time you can't even fully Stack Delyrium or you are not able to use Steady Shooting)

    DW Critical Damage Build (https://archeagecalculator.com/?a=b0757026&b=7):

    Attack Damage 1484 & 5k Defence Penetration & 248% Critical Damage (+45% Critical Damage = 293% Critical Damage)


    Damage = 1484x1.04 = 1543
    (0.04 comes from the x2 2% Lunafrost, we need to include them since the 2H Bonus give 5% Skill Damage)

    Non Crit Damage = 1543

    Crit Damage vs 10k Resilience = 1543x2.53 = 3904
    Crit Damage vs 11k Resilience = 1543x2.39 = 3688
    Crit Damage vs 12k Resilience = 1542x2.25 = 3472
    Crit Damage vs 13k Resilience = 1542x2.11 = 3253
    Crit Damage vs 14k Resilience = 1542x1.97 = 3038


    12k Defence = Reduced to 7k (4 with Puncture Passive)

    7k Defence = 47% Damage Reduction

    Non Crit = 1543x0.53 = 818

    Crit vs 10k Resilience = 3904x0.53 = 2069
    Crit vs 11k Resilience = 3688x0.53 = 1954
    Crit vs 12k Resilience = 3472x0.53 = 1840
    Crit vs 13k Resilience = 3253x0.53 = 1724
    Crit vs 14k Resilience = 3038x0.53 = 1610

    4k Defence =33.5% Damage Reduction

    Non Crit =1543x0.665 = 818

    Crit vs 10k Resilience = 3904x0.665 = 2596
    Crit vs 11k Resilience = 3688x0.665 = 2452
    Crit vs 12k Resilience = 3472x0.665 = 2308
    Crit vs 13k Resilience = 3253x0.665 = 2163
    Crit vs 14k Resilience = 3038x0.665 = 2020


    22k Defence = Reduced to 17k (14k with Pucture Passive)

    17k Defence = 68% Reduction

    Non Crit = 1543x0.32 = 494

    Crit vs 10k Resilience = 3904x0.32 = 1249
    Crit vs 11k Resilience = 3688x0.32 = 1180
    Crit vs 12k Resilience = 3472x0.32 = 1111
    Crit vs 13k Resilience = 3253x0.32 = 1041
    Crit vs 14k Resilience = 3038x0.32 = 972

    14k Defence = 64% Reduction

    Non Crit = 1543x0.36 = 555

    Crit vs 10k Resilience = 3904x0.36 = 1405
    Crit vs 11k Resilience = 3688x0.36 = 1327
    Crit vs 12k Resilience = 3472x0.36 = 1250
    Crit vs 13k Resilience = 3253x0.36 = 1271
    Crit vs 14k Resilience = 3038x0.36 = 1093




    2H Critical Damage Build (https://archeagecalculator.com/?a=b2359126&b=7):

    Attack Damage 1656 & 4.5k Defence Penetration & 209% Critical Damage (+45% Critical Damage = 254% Critical Damage)


    Damage = 1656x1.18 = 1954
    (0.08 comes from the 3% Lunafrost and 5% 2H Equip Bonus / 0.1 comes from 10% bonus from 1.1 Attack Speed)

    Non Crit Damage = 1954

    Crit Damage vs 10k Resilience = 1954x2.14 = 4181
    Crit Damage vs 11k Resilience = 1954x2.00 = 3908
    Crit Damage vs 12k Resilience = 1954x1.86 = 3634
    Crit Damage vs 13k Resilience = 1954x1.50 = 2931
    Crit Damage vs 14k Resilience = 1954x1.50 = 2931


    12k Defence = Reduced to 7.5k (4.5k with Puncture Passive)

    7.5k Defence = 48.5% Damage Reduction

    Non Crit = 1954x0.515 = 1006

    Crit vs 10k Resilience = 4181x0.515 = 2153
    Crit vs 11k Resilience = 3908x0.515 = 2012
    Crit vs 12k Resilience = 3634x0.515 = 1872
    Crit vs 13k Resilience = 2931x0.515 = 1509
    Crit vs 14k Resilience = 2931x0.515 = 1509

    4.5k Defence = 36.5% Damage Reduction

    Non Crit = 1954x0.635 = 1241

    Crit vs 10k Resilience = 4181x0.635 = 2655
    Crit vs 11k Resilience = 3908x0.635 = 2481
    Crit vs 12k Resilience = 3634x0.635 = 2307
    Crit vs 13k Resilience = 2931x0.635 = 1861
    Crit vs 14k Resilience = 2931x0.635 = 1861


    22k Defence = Reduced to 17.5k (14.5k with Pucture Passive)

    17.5k Defence = 69% Reduction

    Non Crit = 1954x0.31 = 606

    Crit vs 10k Resilience = 4181x0.31 = 1296
    Crit vs 11k Resilience = 3908x0.31 = 1211
    Crit vs 12k Resilience = 3634x0.31 = 1126
    Crit vs 13k Resilience = 2931x0.31 = 909
    Crit vs 14k Resilience = 2931x0.31 = 909

    14.5k Defence = 64.5% Reduction

    Non Crit = 1954x0.355 = 694

    Crit vs 10k Resilience = 4181x0.355 = 1484
    Crit vs 11k Resilience = 3908x0.355 = 1387
    Crit vs 12k Resilience = 3634x0.355 = 1290
    Crit vs 13k Resilience = 2931x0.355 = 1040
    Crit vs 14k Resilience = 2931x0.355 = 1040


    (If I mess up some numbers (They were so many lol) for the rush, feel free to point it out, I will edit right away)


    Conclusion:

    As we can see the Damage from Critical Strike falloff really hard against Target with high Resilience, so more the time pass and Players acquire more Resilience the more Defence Penetration will become efficent.

    Without even counting four things:
    1) We assumed that the Character always had a 45% Critical Damage Buff active (Since Delyrium Stacks take 5 seconds of attacking to build, Battle Focus have a cooldown and Steady Shooting can't be used if you are moving as an Archer).
    2) If you don't crit, your Damage is literally null on a Critical Damage Build.
    3) Critical Damage only goes off when you Crit, Resilience also decrease Critical Strike Chance (Is still not clear the precise number, but it is probably 3/4% every 1k) and Parry and Block completly negate the Critical Strike (And pretty much everybody sit a minimum 50% Parry and/or Block, making really hard to Crit "on command").
    4) Going for Defence Penetration & Critical Damage on Hiram/Erenor Weapons on the Critical Damage Build make you lose a lot of Crit (Making you sit at 85/90%, compared to a Defence Penetration Build where you reach the Critical Rate Cap), lowering the efficency of the Build making it less reiable.


    Another thing that we observed is that right now, without the 2H Gem Buffs and Resilience Nerf going for Critical Damage with a 2H is the worst thing you can do, and will probably still that way even after the Buff/Nerf since you lose way too much Critical Damage (Without counting that the 2H Gems Buff will also improve the Defence Penetration Build).


    So Harvest, I'm X/Y/Z, what should I build?
    Mage: Your Attacks can't be Parried or Blocked (So people can't deny your Crits), but you don't have any Critical Damage Steroids, so you sit at a lower Critical Damage... So probably is better to go on the Defence Penetration route.
    Archer: First, Archer should ALWAYS go DW, it's pointless going 2H since you do not benefit from the more Attack of a 2H Weapon... Second, regarding the Build... Defence Penetration, since you don't relay on CC, and people can easily Parry or Block your attacks, you have better chance of dealing damage with a Defence Penetration Build, but remember that you don't have the Puncture Passive, so Defence Penetration is less efficent compared to a Melee (But you also can't stay in Steady Shooting all the time, so it even out). Is probably a matter of "How much I feel lucky to not get Parried/Blocked and be able to Crit?"
    Melee: You can CC and Backstab people, so both build work fine, it's a matter of what you prefer, both works, if you want to be more reiable you go with Defence Penetration (Since you also have Puncture Passive that increase a lot the Value of Defence Penetration), if you want big Crits with Precision Strike you go Critical Damage Build (It's always a matter of "Will I crit?").


    So, which are the "Kings of DPS"? If we assume that you always aim for fighting against the Top-Players in the Game, the answer is: 2H Defence Penetration Build and DW Critical Damage Build.

    Also to mention that DW is still a bit overtuned compared to 2H (Since in the worst case scenario you will end up with nearly the same Damage and in the best case scenario with more Damage, and on top of that you have 177 Attack Speed), hopefully with the 2H Gems changes, 2H will be balanced out at the same powerlevel of Dual Wield.


    If I can take a hard guess, probably with the new Skill Tree that has been added in Korea, XLGames wanted to create a clear direction for the two type of Weapons, Dual Wield will focus hard on Critical Damage and 2H will focus hard on Defence Penetration. (We already had an int in the past with the "Shield Penetration" Stats, but since is too much situational, is a Stat that is not worth taking, and probably it will never be really used)

  2. #2
    Reserved for next Patch's Calculation.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Dutchydutch's Avatar
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    Dual wield gems getting buff too

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchydutch View Post
    Dual wield gems getting buff too
    No, they are not.

    The only Gems that get buffed are the 2H ones, from 1.25 of a 1H Gem to a 1.5 of a 1H Gem.

    https://archeage.xlgames.com/mboards/amigo/21664?page=1 (Use Google Translate)

    Let's not start to spread misinformation right away.

  5. #5
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    Resilience will be capped at 10k (or is it already?). So plan accordingly.

  6. #6
    Senior Member MiroH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyki View Post
    Resilience will be capped at 10k (or is it already?). So plan accordingly.
    No it wont....where did you read this? people have ~13k resilence maybe more in KR and it has no known cap.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiroH View Post
    No it wont....where did you read this? people have ~13k resilence maybe more in KR and it has no known cap.
    Yes it will. It does not matter if some have 13k resilience. There is no increase in it's effect after 10k. Just like crit dmg at 300%. It was in the Korean patch notes.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Canvas's Avatar
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    The problem with def pen builds is that the most important penetration is the last 1k of the targets armor but the again armor cant be negative.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyki View Post
    Resilience will be capped at 10k (or is it already?). So plan accordingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyki View Post
    Yes it will. It does not matter if some have 13k resilience. There is no increase in it's effect after 10k. Just like crit dmg at 300%. It was in the Korean patch notes.
    False, never heard/read about it and I even double checked every single Patch Note in the Korean Site to be sure, there is no Cap for Resilience and there is no plan on capping it.

    As said before, please do not spread misinfonformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas View Post
    The problem with def pen builds is that the most important penetration is the last 1k of the targets armor but the again armor cant be negative.
    While it's true that the low-end of the Curve has the most Value, I don't see the point of this observation and calling it a "problem", since as you can see in the Calculations, 90% of the time you don't even bring the Target below 2k Defence but it still show how Defence Penetration is strong no matter the Target Defence Value (Even against Targets with a lot of Defence).

  10. #10
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    Resilience used to reduce the total damage of a critical hit (with a floor of 150% damage of a regular hit) by the fraction of X/(X+ 18000), where X was your resilience. It wasn't published, but the previous change in the middle of the introduction of hiram changed the constant in the denominator to around 14000 (boosted the effect of resilience). That was the same change that claimed a cap of 300% on added crit damage. Resilience does NOT have a constant amount of reduction, as OP stated, and I'd appreciate a source on the next change to it (1.3->1.2?).

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