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  Click here to go to the first Archeage Team post in this thread.   Thread: Parry and Block

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PandaPoo View Post
    What about Resilience, Toughness and also Damage reductions, when damage hits a player in what order does that damage mitigate thru said factors. ie block- parry- evasion-resilience-toughness-damage reduction final damage received?
    It won't matter since none of those overlap with each other except evasion/block/parry. For instance, if you have 50% evasion, 0 block, and 50% parry, you're only actually parrying 25% of attacks which makes parry weaker (with high evasion or block) because the order it is rolled. But none of those other stats become stronger or weaker by the order.

    I guess logically we can infer the game should determine 1. if there is a hit, 2. if it is a crit, 3. IF crit, THEN critical damage % reduction, 4. all other % reductions. Otherwise it is making unnecessary hypothetical calculations like calculating damage first, only to 'find out' in a later calculation that the skill misses. But that's just process optimization and won't change the final numbers.

    The only other reduction where order matters would be flat damage reduction which is probably calculated last (maximizing its effect), or else we wouldn't see low damage skills vs high defense getting reduced to 1's while they're hitting over 1 vs less defense but same flat reduction.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Doncella's Avatar
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    Does anyone know why spirit increases parry rather than evasion? can you parry attacks with a club?

  3. #13
    Senior Member Raffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyres View Post
    I guess logically we can infer the game should determine 1. if there is a hit, 2. if it is a crit, 3. IF crit, THEN critical damage % reduction, 4. all other % reductions. Otherwise it is making unnecessary hypothetical calculations like calculating damage first, only to 'find out' in a later calculation that the skill misses. But that's just process optimization and won't change the final numbers.
    I would assume any incoming damage goes through a process similar to the following:
    1) Does the attack hit (accuracy), if it misses then [dmg equation] * 0, else
    2) If the attack is evaded, then [dmg equation] * 0, else
    3) If the attack is blocked, then [dmg equation] * 0.4, else
    4) If the attack is parried, then [dmg equation] * 0.6, else
    5) If the attack is a critical strike, then [dmg equation] * [critical damage modifier], else
    6) Damage deals [dmg equation].

    [Dmg equation] would be all of the pertinent damage amplifiers and reductions from the source player and destination player, things like the skills' base and scaling damage, the source player's skill damage %, flat damage bonuses, and defense penetrations; and the destination player's % and flat damage reductions, defenses, toughness, etc.

    [critical damage modifier] would be the amount of critical damage a character has towards the attack type after the destination player's resilience has decreased it.

    I think XL piggybacked or copied the block/parry revamp based on their critical strike code, which I am also assuming is designed to only pass/return one external damage modifier onto the damage equation. Why? Because they could implement it using the same code, making the change very easy, and it would explain why a block and parry cannot be critical strikes. Not because they coded it purposefully as an exception, but because they noticed it as a side effect of the way they implemented it and decided it would be a cool feature instead of a bug.

    I could be wrong, and I don't doubt there are other systems in play (for example, attacks that deal damage >0 applying debuffs unless the debuff is applied as an aoe ground or proximity based effect which is likely handled separately), but it logically makes the most sense to me as to why attacks that are blocked or parried cannot be crits.

    Edit: @Quillodon if you read this, can you ask XL if they would switch the order the avoidance stats are displayed in game on the extended character page so they are in the correct "order of mitigation" going from top to bottom, so evasion listed first at the top, then shield block, then parry rate? It's probably too minor of a thing to fix, but it might help players natively understand how they function, considering that they are no longer additive.

  4.   This is the last Archeage Team post in this thread.   #14
    Localization Editor Quillodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doncella View Post
    Does anyone know why spirit increases parry rather than evasion? can you parry attacks with a club?
    You can parry melee attacks with any weapon that goes in the Right-Hand or Left-Hand item slots, Doncella. And if you happen to be dual-wielding with a club (by using the club + healing scepter combo, for example), you can also parry ranged attacks with the Battlerage passive.

    Hope that helps!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raffin View Post
    Edit: @Quillodon if you read this, can you ask XL if they would switch the order the avoidance stats are displayed in game on the extended character page so they are in the correct "order of mitigation" going from top to bottom, so evasion listed first at the top, then shield block, then parry rate? It's probably too minor of a thing to fix, but it might help players natively understand how they function, considering that they are no longer additive.
    That is a very thoughtful request. I may not be able to convince XL it's worth the bother, but there's nothing stopping me from putting a little note about mitigation order at the bottom of each of those 3 tooltips. I'll have a look later today.

    Cheers,
    -Quill

  5. #15
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    So. I am not good at following this stuff. What should a plate user put in shield, gloves and stuff?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Raffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justaguy View Post
    So. I am not good at following this stuff. What should a plate user put in shield, gloves and stuff?
    Are you going to have over 1-1.2k stamina, and/or have the block passive in the defense tree +90% of the time? If yes, run shield block in your shield, as your health should be adequate and your block will then be high enough to trigger the passive consistently. Otherwise, imo, use the max health gems in your shield, especially as plate, since your pdef should be rather high, and you will not have as much to protect you from mages. The max health gems give you a larger health cushion to absorb incoming magic damage you can't avoid before death, giving healers time to react and keep you alive.

    In gloves, evasion is obviously the best avoidance to gem (1-3 of the old gems if you can afford, then fill the remaining with the new gems or the old lunascales if you can find them). If you are melee you will want parry for the battlerage resets. For any class that isn't a pure tank, you can also put attack/healing or focus gems into gloves if you want, it's all about how you want to play. If you want to do a lot of damage, gem for damage. But remember, since the avoidance stats are no longer additive, total avoidance has changed.

    For example, pre-4.5, if you had 25% evasion, 25% block, and 25% parry, only 25% of all attacks would get past and actually hit you, or 25 attacks out of 100, meaning total avoidance = 75% = 25% + 25 %+ 25%.
    Now, in 4.5, if you have 25% evasion, 25% block, and 25% parry, and you were attacked 100 times, 25 attacks would be evaded, ~19 attacks would be blocked and hit for 40% of their damage, and 14 attacks would be parried and hit for 60%, meaning 42 attacks would get past and hit for 100% damage and possibly crit. This puts total avoidance at 58%, or 1-(0.75*0.75*0.75).

    This change is why block was changed from strength to stamina and given a higher rate per stat point, and why parry was changed from stamina to strength, added to spirit, and given higher rates per stat point as well, to combat how the new order of mitigation changed the overall total probabilities. Most average players actually gained slightly higher total avoidance. The only players that were really hit hard by the nerf were the outlier cases, who had close to or over 100% total avoidance before the patch, because now it is next to impossible to get even close to 90% total avoidance. My finished build will hit 89% total avoidance, with 28% evasion, 82% block (with the defense passive), and 15.5% parry, and it's expensive and absurd to obtain.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffin View Post
    Are you going to have over 1-1.2k stamina, and/or have the block passive in the defense tree +90% of the time? If yes, run shield block in your shield, as your health should be adequate and your block will then be high enough to trigger the passive consistently. Otherwise, imo, use the max health gems in your shield, especially as plate, since your pdef should be rather high, and you will not have as much to protect you from mages. The max health gems give you a larger health cushion to absorb incoming magic damage you can't avoid before death, giving healers time to react and keep you alive.

    In gloves, evasion is obviously the best avoidance to gem (1-3 of the old gems if you can afford, then fill the remaining with the new gems or the old lunascales if you can find them). If you are melee you will want parry for the battlerage resets. For any class that isn't a pure tank, you can also put attack/healing or focus gems into gloves if you want, it's all about how you want to play. If you want to do a lot of damage, gem for damage. But remember, since the avoidance stats are no longer additive, total avoidance has changed.

    For example, pre-4.5, if you had 25% evasion, 25% block, and 25% parry, only 25% of all attacks would get past and actually hit you, or 25 attacks out of 100, meaning total avoidance = 75% = 25% + 25 %+ 25%.
    Now, in 4.5, if you have 25% evasion, 25% block, and 25% parry, and you were attacked 100 times, 25 attacks would be evaded, ~19 attacks would be blocked and hit for 40% of their damage, and 14 attacks would be parried and hit for 60%, meaning 42 attacks would get past and hit for 100% damage and possibly crit. This puts total avoidance at 58%, or 1-(0.75*0.75*0.75).

    This change is why block was changed from strength to stamina and given a higher rate per stat point, and why parry was changed from stamina to strength, added to spirit, and given higher rates per stat point as well, to combat how the new order of mitigation changed the overall total probabilities. Most average players actually gained slightly higher total avoidance. The only players that were really hit hard by the nerf were the outlier cases, who had close to or over 100% total avoidance before the patch, because now it is next to impossible to get even close to 90% total avoidance. My finished build will hit 89% total avoidance, with 28% evasion, 82% block (with the defense passive), and 15.5% parry, and it's expensive and absurd to obtain.
    Thanks for the reply. As I am sitting right now, I have 850 stamina at 5870gs. I still need to get my bow up, and my instrument. Then I still have to gem EVERYTHING. Also my costume and undergarments are lacking as well.

    I was thinking of mdef gems in the gloves.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Raffin's Avatar
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    For a plate tank, mdef in the gloves is definitely a viable option.

  9. #19
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    Thanks for the help. I planned on going for a t3 Obsidian bow since I can grab a load of stamina. And I will go for the obsidian lute as well. I will probably do Divine and take them to t3. Can you tell me what you recommend for those slots as well?

  10. #20
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    since evasion is still 100% i plan on re-gearing around evasion instead of parry. as a strength based melee i'll have plenty of natural parry anyway, but it is far less effective and possibly not worth any more.

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